Daniel Burgess Daniel Burgess

Sexual Assault and Pornography: Sarah’s Sexual Health Journey

We hear about the dangers of pornography, and rightfully so. But can pornography ever be helpful in the process of healing from trauma and sexual identity? In this podcast, Sarah bravely shares her story as a faithful LDS who experienced sexual assault and how pornography helped her reclaim her identity and heal from the abuse.

We hear about the dangers of pornography, and rightfully so. But can pornography ever be helpful in the process of healing from trauma and sexual identity? In this podcast, Sarah bravely shares her story as a faithful LDS who experienced sexual assault and how pornography helped her reclaim her identity and heal from the abuse. 

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Full Transcript:

0:00:00.0 Speaker 1: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of improving intimacy.

 

[music]

 

0:00:24.6 Daniel A. Burgess: Welcome to another episode of improving intimacy. On today's episode, we have Sarah who has offered to go into a very vulnerable and maybe even scary past with sexual assault and what you did to... Is it fair to say, heal or recover? Thrive in spite of that tragedy. So welcome, Sarah, I'm glad to have you here. This is a topic I haven't discussed yet, so one, I wanna be sensitive to your background and history, and I'll let you guide the conversation, but you've expressed the importance of sharing this for other people, so I'm excited to hear what you have to say. So Sarah, tell us a little bit about yourself. Why are you here today, and what is it exactly you wanna share?

 

0:01:11.7 Sarah: Well, thank you first of all for having me on. I am very passionate about this because I remember growing up thinking that this was... I was surely the only person who this was happening to, and then as we'll discuss later, some issues that came up in marriage that just increased that feeling of isolation and shame and loneliness, and I vowed at the time to... If I ever have an opportunity to talk about it, to talk about it so that someone out there is not feeling the same way I did. So that's why I'm so passionate about this, and I think we can just start with that kind of history of what it was like to grow up and date and then move into a marriage and have some of those same issues with little education.

 

0:01:53.5 DB: Yes, it's an important topic that we don't discuss a lot now, I appreciate your bravery in doing this, so let's... We don't need to go in, you're welcome to go into as much details you absolutely want, but for context, are you comfortable with sharing maybe the age this happened? So that we have a little understanding of the history of what's going on there and any details that you're comfortable with sharing.

 

0:02:18.0 Sarah: Sure, so I grew up just in a normal LDS family, a very strong LDS family, all my siblings remained active, so I had great role models, looking up to them, I was active in a Young Women's, everything was just in line for the perfect fairytale story. And I never really dated much in high school, and I just remember thinking, "Oh, I just want a boyfriend so badly," and I watched all my friends date and I just thought, "Oh, that sounds so wonderful. That's something that I'd really like." And then I had my first boyfriend, and we went out on a few dates, and I was 17 at the time. And I remember thinking, being so excited for the first kiss, and then the first kiss happened and when within maybe five to 10 seconds, my shirt was off and he was un-fastening my bra clasp and I thought...

 

0:03:12.7 DB: So you mean he took it off...

 

0:03:14.1 Sarah: Yeah, yeah, he... It was like first kiss, peck, and then I thought I was gonna have this time to like, "Oh, kinda float away and enjoy this moment of happy ever after", and I was like, "Whoa, what is going on?" And I didn't know what was going on, I didn't know what these things I was feeling, what they were, and I was just very overwhelmed with the situation and I didn't stop anything, 'cause I think I was just struck with terror and just being overwhelmed and thinking, "Well, no one's talked about what this is, I don't know what is going on." And I don't actually even remember how that ended, but I remember leaving, sitting in the car feeling like I can't go home. My parents are gonna know that I broke the Law of Chastity, I wouldn't have to talk to the bishop who's my best friend's dad...

 

0:04:06.0 DB: You felt responsible for it.

 

0:04:09.7 Sarah: 100%. It was my fault, 100%. And just that was the beginning of... And I was 17 years old, that was the beginning of not talking to my parents about these experiences, thinking that I was the only one, but also thinking that that's what every girl was experiencing.

 

0:04:26.9 DB: You had no idea?

 

0:04:27.6 Sarah: Yeah. I was the only one, yeah, I was the only one responsible but every other girl surely had to be having these experiences, but it wasn't their fault. So that was just kind of the beginning of a long trail, and I didn't necessarily at that time know that that was sexual assault. I just kind of thought, "That's dating, here we go." [chuckle]

 

0:04:49.3 DB: How scary.

 

0:04:50.9 Sarah: So scary. And he was preparing to go on a mission, and so I was like, "Oh well, he's this great guy who's gonna go and serve the Lord and do all these things, and surely it's my fault." And I'd been raised with this mentality that modesty is my responsibility and how I dress will directly impact what boys do to me and how boys think.

 

0:05:12.6 DB: And that's what you're thinking was your fault?

 

0:05:16.6 Sarah: Totally.

 

0:05:17.1 DB: Was because... Do you feel like you were dressed immodestly that evening?

 

0:05:19.6 Sarah: No, actually, I had come from playing a volleyball game, so I had been wearing athletic gear and in my mind, I'm like sweaty and gross. [chuckle] No one wants to do that, right? And also, I should note that I developed rather quickly as a child, I was... I started puberty at 10 years old, so at 10 years old, I was fully grown as a woman, and I think I internalized a lot of shame about that, of having this really grown-up body and this little girl's brain and not really understanding how to handle both of those mindsets. So when that happened, it was like, "Oh, well, that's because I have this grown woman's body, [chuckle] and he can't control himself."

 

0:06:03.9 DB: And therefore, it was your fault.

 

0:06:05.3 Sarah: Oh, totally. Totally. So that was the first experience. Then I graduated high school, he went on a mission, and I just kept having experience after experience with these boys who were raised in the same faith that I was raised in, who had just no concept of boundaries. I just started to think that if I was going to be kissed, I was gonna be touched, and there was nothing really that I could do to stop it, it was just normal. I came to expect that of good return missionaries, good boys who were leaving on missions, that was just what dating was for me. I didn't think anything different.

 

0:06:49.7 DB: I think that's the most tragic thing I'm hearing... Well, one, the most tragic thing is that you were abused, I guess the close second is that you weren't even aware that you were abused and taken advantage of, and at what point did you look back and say That was wrong. That wasn't my fault?

 

0:07:09.4 Sarah: Not until I was married.

 

0:07:11.3 DB: Oh, wow.

 

0:07:14.3 Sarah: Yeah. And because I had nothing to compare it to. I didn't know anything about sex, I didn't know anything about consent, I didn't know... And at this point, I didn't even know that girls could masturbate. [chuckle] I literally thought that it was just a boy thing.

 

0:07:27.2 DB: Oh, you mean physiologically.

 

0:07:29.4 Sarah: Yes. I didn't think it was possible. I knew absolutely nothing about sex and about body, so this was happening, and I was just thinking, "Oh, this is just normal." So I didn't equate it with abuse, I wasn't having traumatic reactions to it, but I did start to kind of spiral a little bit where I just kind of thought, "Well, if guys are gonna do this to me, then I'm just gonna kiss and have fun with whoever I want and do whatever I want and.

 

0:07:54.2 DB: Interesting.

 

0:07:56.0 Sarah: Not worry about the consequences."

 

0:07:58.1 DB: Tell me a little bit more about that line of thinking, what led you to that as opposed to not dating at all, maybe, or some other... I don't wanna put words in your mouth. What gave you that conclusion, you're just gonna have fun, you're gonna kiss and regardless of the consequences, what led you there?

 

0:08:19.4 Sarah: I think part of it was I was seeing my dear friends get married, from what I understand, and maybe they had been through similar things and just hadn't talked to me about it, but they were getting married and I wasn't. And so I kind of thought, "Oh, well, I'm just like the girl who's gonna get passed around.

 

0:08:38.7 DB: Oh my goodness.

 

0:08:38.7 Sarah: So, I'm gonna have fun in the meantime."

 

0:08:41.3 DB: So you were taken on a narrative that you were broken or undesired, or would that be fair to say, or what were your feelings or thoughts?

 

0:08:49.9 Sarah: I wasn't feeling broken, but I was feeling very much... They're just interested in my body, they're not interested in a long-term commitment, they're not interested in marriage, I'm not like these other girls, they're the marriageable type, they're just in it for my body, and at the same time, I was kind of having this body awakening where I was finally feeling my brain match up with my body in maturity, I was feeling like, "Oh, I'm coming into this woman's body, I'm feeling myself become less impulsive, I'm feeling myself develop as mentally as a woman, I'm leaving that childhood teenage years behind, I'm feeling empowered in my body. And at the same time, I'm only being wanted for my body." So I was like, "I'm just gonna use my body however I want."

 

0:09:42.7 DB: I'm curious, we talked about this a little before we started the podcast, and we shared some thoughts and ideas here, but for the listeners, you're in your mid-20s, just for context, so we're talking about a younger generation, and I realize... I have a good 20 years on you, and dating has always been a struggle, and so I don't know if there's a way to say it's worse now or better or the same, however, in the context that it seems like we as a church have been doing more, whether it be through fire sides or church manuals, really emphasizing how men are supposed to treat women with respect, I think they've done more with that in the last 20 years, yet, you're not alone. This is a story I hear all the time, you're just one of the first, who've been willing to come and talk about it. Tell me what are your thoughts, what's your opinion of why the young men are thinking this way, why do they think this is, okay, or do they think it's Okay?

 

0:10:49.2 Sarah: Well, and we know that sexual assault and rape has been around for as long as people have been on the earth, that's just... It's just the downfall of man... Well, and woman, both can be abusers or perpetrators, but I think in the context of this, there was this generation of 60s and 70s where it was free love and the world was going so radically in one direction that the church narrative pulled so radically in the other direction. I remember talking to my mom like years later, after I had actually been more assaulted and saying, "Why didn't you tell me, why didn't you tell me what to expect or tell me anything about my body, or just tell me what sex is? And she said, "Your father and I felt like if we talked about it, we were giving you permission to do it." And that to me, was just that mindset of that generation, the policies that were coming out from the church in that generation was all fear-based, shame-based and at the same time, there's more material available, so our children at this time are educating themselves with porn, which is a terrible sex educator, and they're not learning, they're not reconciling what they're seeing, what feeling and what the person in the porn is doing.

 

0:12:09.5 Sarah: And so if the person in porn who's on the receiving end is showing fear and showing discomfort and these young boys are watching it enjoying it, how are they to not know that it's gonna be different in person with a partner? Now how are they not... They're not gonna know, "Oh, this is a boundary that I'm crossing. This person is scared, their body is showing scared, their face is showing fear, their voice is showing fear, they may not have said, no," but... We've set them up for failure, we've set them up in this position of not knowing they're crossing boundaries, not knowing what consent is, because we've been so afraid to talk about it.

 

0:12:54.6 DB: I think you articulated it perfectly, this is a constant problem I'm seeing. I usually see two extremes where young men refuse to date or they don't know how to engage in dating at all, and so they don't even... It's not even a physical thing, they don't even know how to involve themselves, and again, this has always been the case, but I've been seeing this kind of this extremism getting bigger and bigger.

 

0:13:23.1 Sarah: The divide.

 

0:13:24.4 DB: And then we have the others who, while they understand that porn is bad, and it seems like in the church we've done, we've talked more about porn, we have more anti-porn programs and organizations out there than we've ever had yet this is becoming a bigger and bigger issue. And I think what I was hearing you say was, "Yes, we're told... " And I wanna clarify for the audience too, 'cause it could sound like we're saying, "Oh gosh, the church screwed up in all of its teachings there... " Do you consider yourself an active member now?

 

0:13:55.0 Sarah: Yeah.

 

0:13:55.1 DB: And this is...

 

0:14:00.1 Sarah: Yep, active member, temple holding member, half callings... I was the Young Women's president just barely.

 

0:14:03.7 DB: Forgive me, I didn't wanna make that as though that was the most important thing here, I just wanna give context that this isn't just criticism, this is crucial for a healthy, engaging dating behavior. Absolutely, and so what we see here is young men who're told what not to do, and you said it before the interview, it's because they're not taught what to do. We could talk all day and night about what not to do, but when you're placed in a situation, all you have to go off of is what you've seen and heard, and that's the don'ts and the bad role models of porn.

 

0:14:43.4 Sarah: Exactly. And at the same time as a girl, the rhetoric that I was receiving was not what not to do, dress your body in this way so that the boys can control their thoughts, you act this way so that you're not tempting to the boys. There was all this don't, don't, don't. And it very much was my responsibility how the boys and the men in my life treated me, and I have a fantastic father, and I have fantastic brothers who never once crossed any sort of sexual boundary, never even came close to it with anyone that I'm aware of, not with myself and not anyone else, but it was... I remember walking up to the stand to give a Young Women talk thinking, "Oh my gosh, are the men in the ward like looking at my butt?"

 

0:15:28.3 DB: Oh my goodness.

 

0:15:29.1 Sarah: As I walk up there, "Is my skirt too tight? Are my hips too wide? Am I... [chuckle] Are they cheating on their wives by lusting after me?"

 

0:15:37.6 DB: Because... Oh my goodness.

 

0:15:38.1 Sarah: And I was like 16.

 

0:15:41.8 DB: First of all, the thought that comes to me is, "No youth, should ever be concerned with that thinking about that," and you're saying those fears and concerns were present because of the modesty lessons that you've received.

 

0:15:53.0 Sarah: Totally.

 

0:15:55.7 DB: And thinking that you need to do everything you can to help protect these men, young and old from being tempted.

 

0:16:03.8 Sarah: Totally.

 

0:16:06.0 DB: That's heavy.

 

0:16:07.4 Sarah: Super heavy.

 

0:16:07.9 DB: This is heavy, and I'm gonna diverge just a little bit here, because I think it's important to speak to... People are probably listening here and saying, "Oh gosh, Well, if young men understand that porn is bad, then why are they behaving... " Okay, I hear that they weren't taught how to behave correctly, a little insight that I've discovered in working with young men is this kind of same thing again, they have been tempted, they cannot resist their urges... Sorry, this is the scripts that they're told once they experience desire, they're on a dangerous path. One support group, and I don't mean to be critical, but the concern is one support group actually says it's Satan's Chemical, and this is an LDS support group, so imagine... So the reason why I'm bringing this up is you as a 16-year-old, you were concerned about married men sinning by looking at you.

 

0:17:10.4 Sarah: Yes.

 

0:17:10.4 DB: And now, with young men, what I've seen is something similar, different, but similar in that they start to have this experience where they're getting aroused, they have an erection, they immediately think, they're doomed. I had one 14-year-old tell me, I thought... I thought he... I'm not trying to be loose with my words or silly at all, this is the impression and his countenance when he came in, I thought he killed somebody. This kid was scared and he looked at me and he started to say things like, young man saying things like, "I'm on the path to becoming a rapist, I'm on a path to become a serial killer." He was saying these things, and then he said something that just... That alone was scary and heavy, but where I'm going with this is, he said, "I've also destroyed my... " What was the word he used? He said something to the effect of, "I've disappointed my future wife and let my future kids down."

 

0:18:18.6 Sarah: That's so sad.

 

0:18:19.9 DB: Just like you... Well, again, different, but like you're carrying this huge weight, so these young men, what I'm seeing is they feel like they're at this impossible journey.

 

0:18:32.0 DB: And so, they just give up and they say, "I'm just doing it, I'm already gone." And this poor kid, he was scared out of his mind. So people are probably listening say, "Still why would... " Well, because they're not taught what is good, so all they're going off of is their fear and they're giving in because they recognize, they can't even resist it, it seems impossible. That relate to your experience or what are your thoughts?

 

0:19:01.9 Sarah: Totally. Well, it's... Looking back now, and even at the time, I thought, "These were good guys." In every other regard, they were good guys. And then, I think it just was... There was no boundary, there was no consent. It's hard because we've damaged both, both genders in this talk, we've told the girls that it's their responsibility and they're... Sorry for the strong language, but they're damned for having the female bodies, and we've told the boys they're damned for having physiological responses that they can't control. [chuckle] And this is the extreme that I think we deal with is... I was 21 years old and my minor was sex education, and I remember sitting at the University of Utah, going and my professor saying female masturbation and going, "That's not possible." I was 21, and I had no clue that that was something that girls did, because I had only ever heard masturbation in reference to boys in the church, and that was the extent of my sex education, that was a mind-blowing thing of like, "Holy cow." We have hurt each other so badly just by not knowing, A How our bodies work. B, our bodies are working normally, and C, let's now communicate with each other. None of that was in my vocabulary.

 

0:20:30.0 Sarah: So to kind of continue with my story...

 

0:20:31.2 DB: Please.

 

0:20:31.5 Sarah: I kinda went through this rough patch where I was like, "I'm just gonna kiss anyone who has two legs and walks into the room." And at the same time, I'm still... I'm the secretary in the Relief Society presidency in my singles ward, and I feel like I'm living these two separate lives. There's the version of me who is dating and there's a version of me who's going to church and I can't reconcile them. And then the age I turned in my mission papers and I said, "I'm gonna go on a mission, that's gonna be what's kinda turned my life around, I'm gonna go on a mission." So I got myself straightened out, I went on a mission, I had a great time, I came back, and then I started dating again. And this guy who I was dating, I thought, "This is gonna be different." He took a couple of weeks to kiss me, we went out for a couple of times, and my mission for me was very empowering because I learned how to speak up and out for myself, I think it's really hard to go on a mission and not kinda gain that confidence, a little bit in yourself. So I came back with that confidence of, I'm gonna...

 

0:21:47.6 Sarah: Now I know how to say no. And then I started dating this guy, and it's like, "Oh, it's different." He's being such a gentleman. And this could be, this could be the long-term thing, and then things started to change again.

 

0:22:01.3 DB: My goodness.

 

0:22:03.7 Sarah: So we had to hung out one night and his parents had left out of town, and he was like, "Why don't you come out, you come over, and we'll just, hang out and it'll be a really good evening, and... " I ended up spending the night. And nothing like nothing happened during the night, we just fell asleep in the bed, we cuddled all night long, there was no sexual pressure, and then it was in the middle of the night, something changed, and then suddenly it was like he was begging me to do all of these things, and I just said, "What is wrong with you? What has happened?" And...

 

0:22:44.2 DB: You called him out.

 

0:22:45.2 Sarah: I called him out, and he... And then I just said to him, "When was the last time you looked at porn?" And he disclosed to me that he... And he said he'd had a porn addiction since he was 14. And at this stage in my life, I was like, "Oh, well, that's okay. I know a lot of guys deal with that, so this isn't gonna end our relationship, but I want you to work through it and I want you to talk to the bishop, and I don't expect perfection, but I do want respect." So I'm thinking, I'm so grown up, I'm having this really grown-up conversation. This guy is telling... I won't go too far into what I think about that now, but for the context of the story at this time, I was thinking, "I'm so great that I can work through this with him, and he's so great that he's being honest with me." So I think we're on a great path and we keep dating, and then he just starts walking across that boundary again, and I just keep thinking, "Oh my gosh, I've gotta fix him, I've got to be sexier, so he's not looking at porn. I've got to... " And I was trying so hard not to do the things that he was wanting me to do, and at the same time he was telling me, "If you don't do these things, I'm gonna look at porn."

 

0:24:02.9 DB: Oh my goodness.

 

0:24:04.8 Sarah: So again, I'm like, "Holy crap, how am I back at this spot where I'm again responsible for this guy's sexuality?" At the same time he's telling me he loves me and he wants to get married, there was just something about the relationship that was making me stick my heels. And if, "We're not gonna be exclusive, we're gonna date other people, 'cause you can't figure this out, and until you can figure this out, I'm not jumping in with you." And I think honestly, that was probably, is the spirit trying to keep me safe, and I didn't recognize it at the time, but... This was the relationship where it turned violent pretty quick.

 

0:24:42.4 DB: Physically violent?

 

0:24:43.3 Sarah: Sexually violent. So there was just a lot of fear involved in it, there was a lot of manipulation, there was me saying, No. Me begging to stop, and there was just, No, I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do." But it had never turned into full penetration, and then he at some point in the relationship, he brings up marriage again, "If we get married, I'll be able to stop looking at this porn because we'll be able to do everything that we want. It won't be... "

 

0:25:14.2 DB: Such a lack of education there.

 

[laughter]

 

0:25:17.1 Sarah: Huge lack of education.

 

0:25:17.9 DB: Or bad education.

 

0:25:21.6 Sarah: Yeah.

 

0:25:21.7 DB: Oh my goodness, and...

 

0:25:21.8 Sarah: And I'm believing it, because I don't have any education either, so... And my minor now is in sex education and I'm like, "Sure...

 

0:25:30.2 DB: Yeah, I was going to bring that up.

 

0:25:30.3 Sarah: Great. This will fix it." 'Cause that's what we've been taught in the church is like, you get married and then it's, "No, it's no, no, no, to go, go go, and all your sexual problems are gone."

 

0:25:38.4 DB: Yeah, it's one of the biggest myths. I don't think it's fair to say a lie, because I think the leadership and the people who are saying this truly believe it, I don't think they're being deceptive, but it just goes to the core of this whole podcast episode is the lack of education. The lack of good education, not just in the negative, but in informative strategies, and I don't even know where that idea came from, that if you get married, the porn habit goes away. That couldn't be further from the truth.

 

0:26:11.0 Sarah: Right?

 

0:26:12.1 DB: If it does, it's coincidental. That's mere coincidence. We could talk about that a little bit more, but this is sad, this is the thing that is most upsetting to me when working with people who have a lack of sexual education, 'cause all they know is porn is bad, but they have no idea of what it looks like to have a healthy relationship. So you're dealing with this. Are you able to say... Can you say, how you got out of it, or what did you do?

 

0:26:46.4 Sarah: Yeah. So there were... So while we were dating, I kept thinking, there's this other guy who I know, we're really good friends. If he would just come to me and just say, "Hey, would you marry me? I would do it in a heartbeat." I just felt so strongly about this friend, and at the same time this other guy is treating me so poorly, and I'm thinking it's all my fault, and I'm feeling so guilty and I'm going to my Bishop and I'm telling my Bishop, "These things are happening. How do I fix them?" And he's giving me more tools than anyone ever had, he's giving me books about pornography, he's giving me... Which were I think, [chuckle] very skewed towards the church's narrative. I don't think they were necessarily a scientifically-based, they were much more along the basis of, "It's an addiction. It's the same thing as doing cocaine", which is absolutely not true.

 

0:27:44.9 DB: I wanna get into that. And of course, I don't wanna diverge you... I do wanna come back to that. So he was helpful. Was that... At what point... Okay, so what you're saying is that guidance was helpful in ending this current relationship?

 

0:28:00.5 Sarah: It was helpful in knowing that it wasn't just my fault.

 

0:28:03.0 DB: Okay.

 

0:28:03.3 Sarah: And that I could be empowered in the relationship, and he was the first person who kind of said to me like, "If this isn't the future you want, then you don't have to be in it."

 

0:28:14.2 DB: Good for him.

 

0:28:15.1 Sarah: Right? And so, but there was still... And that's the hard part about Bishops is that, I think if it had been someone with clinical understanding, they would have said, "This is an abusive relationship," and instead it was like, "If you just don't want porn to be a part of your relationship, just date someone else." And I was like, "Well, that would be nice, but open your eyes, that's not possible."

 

0:28:40.3 DB: Exactly.

 

0:28:40.8 Sarah: So at this point, I'm taking my garments off, 'cause I just feel so unworthy and...

 

0:28:48.7 DB: You weren't instructed to, you just chose to.

 

0:28:51.1 Sarah: No. And I'm just myself choosing not to take the sacrament, 'cause I just feel so unworthy. And then this guy who I've thought so much about calls me out of the blue and he's like, "Hey, let's go to lunch." And we go to lunch one day and I just thought, "Okay, I'm ending it. I'm ending it because there's something about this guy, I'm gonna end it." So I did, I ended this relationship, then I didn't hear from this guy again. [chuckle]

 

0:29:20.6 DB: The guy you were interested?

 

0:29:21.7 Sarah: Yeah. The guy that I was interested, who kinda gave me hope again for men, and I was like, "Well, that's probably better, 'cause I'm in the spot where I probably need to do some healing and working on myself and... " So I don't date anyone for a while, and I work on myself, and then I'm getting lonely, getting really lonely, and I run into this guy who I had been... This guy who I'd been in the relationship with, and I run into him on campus and he's like, "Hey, do you wanna come over?"

 

0:30:00.3 DB: Even though you've cut it off?

 

0:30:00.5 Sarah: Yeah, I've cut off. It's been months and I was so lonely that I was like...

 

0:30:03.9 DB: 'Cause, there's no boundaries.

 

0:30:05.0 Sarah: Yeah, there's no boundaries and I'm just lonely. So I'm like, "Yeah, of course," it's like, we're good friends and I still cared about him even though, 'cause I didn't know that it was an abusive relationship.

 

0:30:14.5 DB: Right. And I'm making an assumption here. You just said that you were really lonely, and do you feel like that played into you saying yes also, or...

 

0:30:26.4 Sarah: Yeah, totally. I just was... I was lonely, all my friends had been married, I'm just back from my mission. [chuckle] It's a hard transition back. We've been dating for seven or eight months when we ended it, so now it's probably like nine or 10 months after, and so we just start talking again, we just started being friends. And then, the other guy who I was interested in at the other time, he calls me up, and he's like, "Do you wanna go on a date?"

 

0:30:57.9 DB: His timing is interesting.

 

0:31:00.8 Sarah: At the same time. Yes. So at the same time, these guys are like back in my life at the exact same time, and... So long story short, I ended up saying... This is gonna be so confusing probably to the listeners, but I ended up saying to this guy who I had been dating, "Hey, this other guy asked me out." And, 'cause we were just friends and something... I saw something in his eyes switch. He was like, "Oh, well, yeah, you always talked about him and how much you liked him and how much you respected him, and he's kind of the obstacle that was in our path of us moving forward." I was like, "Not really."

 

0:31:37.6 DB: Rather he's... The hope in saving you?

 

0:31:38.9 Sarah: Yeah, I was like, No, it was probably the narrative, but I had, was that I was responsible for your sexuality, for your porn use, and I couldn't fix that anymore, so he ended up asking me to join him for the middle of the day for lunch, and I went over...

 

0:31:58.3 DB: Which one?

 

0:31:58.3 Sarah: The guy who I had dated.

 

0:32:00.7 DB: Okay.

 

0:32:00.9 Sarah: So I went over to his house during lunch, we left campus together, he drove me there and we were... I remember thinking, "Okay, are we ever gonna eat lunch?" 'Cause we just sat in his room for a while, and then he raped me. And I just remember laying there and it just started off as just normal kissing, and I was like, "Hey, this is weird, but where is this going?" And then it was right back to 17-year-old me who suddenly was being touched and this time I was saying, "No, please stop. No, I don't want this." And it happened anyway. And so that happens, and I looked at him afterwards and he got up and he said, "Let's go back to school." And I looked at him and I hugged him. I hugged him, and I said, "I didn't want that to happen." And I hugged him, 'cause I was so scared that I wasn't gonna be, like I wasn't gonna survive or something, like... My brain just went in to do whatever you need to do to get out of there.

 

0:33:09.1 DB: Trauma mode.

 

0:33:09.9 Sarah: Oh, totally. So we got back at school and then I called my... I texted my friend and I texted her and I said, "I just had sex. What do I do now?" And this friend had had sex before marriage as well when she was dating.

 

0:33:26.6 DB: Not, I was raped, and how do I report him, but what do you do?

 

0:33:30.1 Sarah: No. No. 100 percent, in my mind it was, "I had had sex." So I call her and she's like, "Oh, it's okay, you'll be okay, it's hard, but you can... You might not be able to take the sacrament for a couple of months, but you can get back and call your Bishop and... " So at this point, I am about to go into work, I'm sick to my stomach, I am shaking and I think, "I just had sex for the first time." So I call my Bishop, I go to the Bishop's office or I go to his house, 'cause it was a Friday night and I'm just devastated, and I walk in and he's like, "What can I do for you?" And I slide my temple garment across the table to him, and I'm like, "I'm no longer worthy of this." And he was like, "Okay, well, tell me what happened?" And so I start saying, start describing to him what happened, and.

 

0:34:24.6 DB: Is this is the same Bishop that provided you good resources? .

 

0:34:27.2 Sarah: Yes. Thank goodness.

 

0:34:27.8 DB: Yes.

 

0:34:28.4 Sarah: Same Bishop, and he stops me and he says, "No, you didn't have sex. You were raped." And it just suddenly was like, "That's what that was."

 

0:34:39.2 DB: He called it out.

 

0:34:39.4 Sarah: He called it out.

 

0:34:41.1 DB: Excellent.

 

0:34:41.6 Sarah: Yes, and he said, "I have, I've known you for a while. I've been working with you for a while, from what you've described, your relationship with this guy, you've tried really, really hard, and he has not respected that, and he took full advantage of you and he raped you." And I just sat there stunned. I finally had a word for what was happening, and thank goodness, this Bishop was so in tune and he said, "You know, I don't know how to help you." He said, "I can help you with spiritual healing if you need it, but I don't know how to help you and I'm gonna pay for you to find help." 'Cause at this point, I also didn't have insurance and I was too afraid to tell my parents, so I'm like, [chuckle] "Ah, what do I do?" And I didn't go to the hospital to get any forensic exams done, 'cause I didn't know I had been raped, and suddenly here's this ecclesiastical leader pointing me in the direction of help, and it was life-saving, so he paid for me to see a therapist and I was in therapy within a week, and that made all the difference in my life. And I had a male therapist where... He said, "I'm gonna send you to a male therapist" and I said, "What have you been smoking Bishop? I'm not gonna go sit across from a man and tell him what happened." And he said, "I think that you need a man to listen to you." And so I had to sit...

 

0:36:02.1 DB: This Bishop wasn't a counsel, he had no training.

 

0:36:05.1 Sarah: No. No training.

 

0:36:07.6 DB: This is interesting. Sorry, I think this is actually an important concept that a lot of...

 

0:36:12.6 Sarah: Totally.

 

0:36:12.7 DB: People don't realize. When I was working, in my training, I was serving the community in a community center, and that was the first time that I found women who had been raped were asking for male therapists, and that was before I really understood something called Gestalt therapy, if you're familiar.

 

0:36:30.3 Sarah: Yes. Yeah.

 

0:36:32.4 DB: And this is their opportunity... There's many reasons to do this, and there are some... I wanna be clear, there are some reasons not to do it either also, and so what this allows, and I'm curious to hear your experiences is, I like how the Bishop said, is it gives a man an opportunity, you get to have a man listen to you and validate you. It also provides the victim an opportunity in a gestalt model for those who aren't familiar, there's this concept of empty chair or imagining that the therapist is your aggressor and you lash out at them in a therapeutic way or whatever, you confront them that way, and so it can be very therapeutic if you're ready for that. It's always hard to tell. But what was your experience? So he suggested this, it looked like you're a little surprised.

 

0:37:25.1 Sarah: Totally.

 

0:37:26.4 DB: But you followed through and you found a male therapist?

 

0:37:28.0 Sarah: Yeah, he actually gave me a referral, he said I... He had had a friend who was a therapist or was very aware of clinical concepts or whatever that... She suggested I see a man. So he gave me the number, I called and made the appointment myself. And I walked in not really knowing what to expect. I had never been to therapy before, and I walked in and I sat down and just kind of started talking about my life and my past and everything that was going on in this relationship and being stuck on the concept of like, "I had lost my virginity." One thing that he said in that first day was, "No. No, you don't lose your virginity, that's a social construct, you don't lose your virginity. No one takes that from you." And that was the beginning of realizing, "Okay, I've got some very unhealthy and harmful narratives in my mind, and I need to change them."

 

0:38:26.9 DB: So, you're presenting this is as very accepting and like, "Oh, yeah." What's it like that for you at the moment? Did you push back at all? Did you... What was your awakening, healing process like, was it difficult to receive that information or was it healing?

 

0:38:43.5 Sarah: The difference was, is that he was clinically trained, and so he... As opposed to saying it to a bishop or a parent, he had this clinical training to... I could see the surprise on his face when I was telling him these things that I thought were normal. And so, much like, right now, I'm telling you things and you have these surprise looks on your face and it's so validating.

 

0:39:04.9 DB: Oh good. [laughter]

 

0:39:06.9 Sarah: Right? It is 100% validating to think, "These things that I thought were normal, that every girl experienced, are horrifying to this man, and he would never treat a girl this way or a female this way." And I can see it on his face. And he's a member of the church, and this isn't right.

 

0:39:24.4 DB: The therapist?

 

0:39:25.3 Sarah: Yeah, this therapist. So that was probably what made me actually accept it, was that, "Here's this guy who believes the same thing I do, who is horrified and shocked and in tears at some point with what I'm telling him and how I've assumed and accepted as a normal behavior."

 

0:39:47.6 DB: You can't... I don't know, I can't speak for every therapist, but I've heard stories and no two stories are the same. Everybody's experience is unique, but it's heart wrenching each time. I hope, one, I hope I never get used to hearing it. If I do, I need to check myself.

 

[laughter]

 

0:40:11.7 DB: It's heart-breaking, and again, to repeat what you're saying, this at the beginning... This is why it's so important for you to speak out and I appreciate that. So, continue from there. What was your journey like? How long were you in therapy? What was your discoveries along that path?

 

0:40:28.7 Sarah: Well, I think the most important discovery that we made in therapy together was I had this pattern of dating guys who I thought I could fix. 'Cause that was also a narrative that I had taken on is like, "As a disciple of Christ and as a woman of Christ, I have to fix people and I'm gonna make them better." And he said, "You date these people who you think you need to fix, and this is... So, this is like you're going along in your car, and I want you to think of your rape as like you've hit a brick wall. And that brick wall is stopping you from what could be." And I remember thinking, "Oh my gosh, if I had married that guy, this would have been my life, and I would not have known." And it always shocks people when I say this, but I will say it, I'm so grateful for it. I'm so grateful for that experience because I walked out of therapy going, "Not again. No one will ever treat me that way again, and I'm not gonna date a guy who's gonna treat me like that." And long story short, I ended up marrying that other guy.

 

0:41:33.8 DB: The one that was...

 

[chuckle]

 

0:41:34.1 Sarah: Yeah. The one who I always wanted to date while I was dating this other guy. We got our act together and we ended up getting married. So, that was... And he was the exact opposite. He was the guy... And ironically, I thought before this experience, I was never good enough for him, either. He's this amazing, incredible guy, and I was like, "I'm not good enough." And I walked out of therapy going, "Oh, I am so good enough for him, and he would be so lucky to have me."

 

[laughter]

 

0:42:06.6 DB: What a wonderful discovery. And you brought up something that we kind of glossed over it. I can't tell you how many women end up marrying a situation like that where, because they don't have this discovery, and I'm not... This is tragic. And it's years later that they discover this was horrible. So I appreciate, and I realize it's probably difficult for a lot of people to hear it. We're clearly not saying the abuse was okay.

 

0:42:36.4 Sarah: No, not at all.

 

0:42:39.3 DB: But that, as a result, you were awakened, it was an opportunity to get help and to discover more. I'm sure it wasn't as simple as having that discovery and everything's better.

 

0:42:53.6 Sarah: No, not at all.

 

0:42:53.7 DB: What was that journey like from there on out? So, you're dating your husband, and...

 

0:42:58.3 Sarah: So, we're dating, and I'm thinking, "Okay, that's the end of our... The end of my sexual problems." [chuckle] And again, great guy, we start dating, he takes like a month to kiss me and then it's just like little pecks here and there for months, and I'm finally like, "Hey... "

 

0:43:14.0 DB: Is he aware of this recent experience yet?

 

0:43:18.1 Sarah: So at this point, no, at this point...

 

0:43:21.0 DB: So, he's acting all on his accord, he's not... He's not like over...

 

0:43:23.2 Sarah: Yes. He's not being over-aware or over-sensitive or over-thinking anything.

 

0:43:28.6 DB: I think that's important for the listeners to know.

 

0:43:29.0 Sarah: Totally. Yeah.

 

0:43:30.2 DB: So this is... You found a guy who's true to his behavior here. This is...

 

0:43:35.5 Sarah: Yeah. He is living his behavior, he is showing me his behavior. And I'm starting to get worried of like, "Okay, why is this not unfolding? Why are we not progressing at all?" And...

 

0:43:46.8 DB: Isn't that interesting? You're expecting this will happen.

 

0:43:51.3 Sarah: Yes. I'm expecting that this will happen, 'cause I wanted to, know... I wanted to be able to say no, I like, I was gonna set those boundaries and like we're gonna talk about them, there's gonna be none of this business going on. And he kisses me one night and I pull away from him and I go, "Why won't you kiss me for longer?" And he goes, "I don't wanna have an erection." And I was like, "What? [chuckle] What are you saying?" And he said, "If I have an erection, I'm being disrespectful to you."

 

0:44:19.0 DB: Wow.

 

0:44:19.5 Sarah: And he said, My... He had a Bishop when he was 16, tell him the erections were breaking law of chastity, and I was like, "Hey, buddy, if we're kissing and you don't have that response, there's something wrong. There's a bigger issue." [laughter] I was just was so shocked.

 

0:44:38.7 DB: You had such insight... You had that insight at that time?

 

0:44:41.7 Sarah: Yeah.

 

0:44:41.9 DB: Is that something you learned... Forgive me, I'm coming from maybe a place of ignorance here in making some assumptions. After your traumatic experiences, it would seem like, my naive response here, "Oh, good, you're not. You would... " Some people might feed that behavior and say, "Oh good, now I know I'm safe." What allowed you to say, "Oh, this is actually unhealthy?"

 

0:45:08.6 Sarah: So, my therapist and I worked a lot through that. 'Cause my therapist was very concerned that I started dating this guy, 'cause he said, "You know, I don't want that...

 

0:45:16.8 DB: Your now husband.

 

0:45:17.7 Sarah: Yes, my now husband. "I don't want you to feel like that you're getting into this relationship where he's saving you and you're working through some really traumatic things, and we don't want to get that tied up in your relationship."

 

0:45:29.1 DB: Good.

 

0:45:29.5 Sarah: So we worked very closely to... And I was very transparent with my therapist with this, now relation... My husband. And so I was talking to him about these concerns and he said, "Well, why don't you just ask him?" I was, at this point, and we had talked about how it's, an erection is a normal response to any sort of stimulus and not to fear it. So I didn't. I wasn't fearing it. And he said, "Any guy who's gonna respect your boundaries is gonna be able to say, 'My pants will calm down,' and I won't touch you." [chuckle] And I... Yeah, I just... I knew this guy was gonna be that way, there was just something about him that he... From the very beginning, he respected me. So, I have this discussion with him and I'm like, "Why are you not kissing me longer, and he's like, I don't wanna disrespect you, is disrespect for you." And I'm like, "Well, I would like to make out. [laughter] So, I'd like to kiss you a little bit longer." And we've been dating for months and let's see if this is going somewhere, and... So, long story short is, he had a lot of that narrative in his mind that he was so afraid of disrespecting women and girls that he had shut down everything.

 

0:46:40.8 DB: Like I was saying at the beginning.

 

0:46:41.8 Sarah: Totally. He is the opposite.

 

0:46:42.7 DB: That extreme. Yeah. I wanna point out, and I hope you don't feel like I'm putting you on a pedestal here, but it sounds like, and I realized, we're reflecting back on the past, the maturity that you gained to have that conversation is amazing.

 

0:47:00.8 Sarah: Thank you.

 

0:47:00.9 DB: It's... I don't want that to come out in a way that if others have been through a traumatic experience, can't do that, as any way shameful.

 

0:47:10.0 Sarah: Not at all.

 

0:47:10.1 DB: But I wanna emphasize how significant that is, that you didn't just run away or stay or not say anything at all. There's this culture of, "Don't talk about it at all." But you used it as an opportunity to connect with him. Which is a huge part of what I believe is healing, creating connection.

 

0:47:31.9 Sarah: Totally.

 

0:47:32.9 DB: Have an awareness of each other as opposed to assuming and labeling and ignoring or just not discussing. That is... I'm trying not to be extreme in my language, but that is truly impressive.

 

0:47:47.8 Sarah: Thank you.

 

0:47:48.7 DB: And I think it's important for the listeners to understand both how difficult that is and the fact that you were able to do it, was beautiful.

 

0:47:56.7 Sarah: Thank you. Well, and I do... It was so helpful to be falling in love, at the same point in therapy, weekly, [chuckle] and at the same point, having these really open discussions with the suitor. So, we'll fast forward to a couple of weeks and he's doing something playfully, like I think he picked me up and twirled me around and I had a traumatic response and I shoved him. And he stepped back and looked at me and was like, "I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry." And I was like, "Oh, no, no, no, no, no, you're fine. I just don't like... "

 

0:48:35.6 DB: You're still taking the responsibility.

 

0:48:36.9 Sarah: Yeah. I was like, "I just don't like being picked up." And later that night, I thought, "Okay, I've got to tell him what's going on. I don't want him to think that this is his fault, and, well, this needs to be... "

 

0:48:47.9 DB: Oh, that's right. 'Cause you hadn't shared with him yet. So this was your opportunity.

 

0:48:49.0 Sarah: Yeah. So, at this point he has no idea what's going on. And so I sat him down on the couch and I said, "Listen, this is what's happened, and I understand if you wanna walk away." And he was like, "Why would I walk [chuckle] away?" And he just sat and cried.

 

0:49:04.7 DB: What a different experience?

 

0:49:05.9 Sarah: So different. He sat and cried with me, he held me while I cried, and he... I don't know how he did this, but he managed his traumatic response in front of me. So, he cried, he... And I told him, "This is a lot for you to handle, I understand that, if you need to tell someone, if you need to tell your parents, if you need to tell a bishop, if you need to tell a friend, please tell someone so you're not holding this by yourself. I have my people who are holding it with me, please get your people." And he... That's when he had his traumatic response of like, "I'm gonna kill this guy, I'm gonna find him... " That's when he had his response to my trauma, but that I was... I didn't have to carry it. And I think that's why we are married. [chuckle] He was able to separate that. [laughter]

 

0:49:51.1 DB: Yes. And I'm gonna point that out. How crucial that is, again, not to put you on a pedestal, but your ability to create differentiation in the relationship early on and not feel like, while you're communicating and being open and creating connection, you also emphasized, "I'm carrying my load, I've got my people, and if this is concerning, the most effective way to deal is get your own people. Let's not blend our trauma together. Let's support each other, but let's not be each other's therapist."

 

0:50:22.7 Sarah: Oh yeah.

 

0:50:23.0 DB: There's a fine line there, of course, but... Very impressive.

 

0:50:28.5 Sarah: And his mom has been a therapist, and so I said, "Please talk to your mom about this." And I was trying to not be ashamed, and so I didn't want this to be a secret. So I didn't want... You know, [chuckle] to be like, "Oh, my girlfriend's gone through something, but I can't tell my parents about it." It was like, "If I'm a part of your family, this is a part of my life, like this, we're not gonna put it in the closet, it's just gonna be out there. It's what it is." And so our relationship progressed. He went to therapy by himself. He came to therapy with me a few times, and we fell in love, and we got married and I was like, "Okay, here we go, here comes sex. Real sex."

 

0:51:05.5 DB: Oh-oh.

 

0:51:06.1 Sarah: Good sex.

 

0:51:07.1 DB: So, it is good, everything's great, happy ever after, right?

 

0:51:11.4 Sarah: We would like to think, right? So, back to my Bishop, great insightful Bishop, where we are... We're getting ready to get married and he pulls us in his office and he says, "You guys, this is gonna be hard for Sarah. It's gonna be really hard for Sarah to go from these traumatic experiences to, Let's do it all in one night." And he says, "I'd like you to explore each other's bodies." And he said, Your only... He gave us limits and he said, "Your only limits are oral and penetrative sex."

 

0:51:45.5 DB: Your Bishop counselled you this?

 

[chuckle]

 

0:51:46.6 Sarah: My Bishop.

 

0:51:47.3 DB: I want his name and number.

 

[laughter]

 

0:51:49.3 Sarah: Alright.

 

0:51:50.4 DB: This is phenomenal. When you heard him say that, what was your response?

 

0:51:56.0 Sarah: Well, I was like, jaw dropped. Because my husband's bishop, at that time, he was like, "You can't touch each other at all. Satan's gonna be trying to destroy you as a family, and if you... "

 

0:52:08.4 DB: Oh, yeah. I hear that all the time.

 

0:52:09.7 Sarah: Yeah. [chuckle] "If you touch each other at all, you're gonna have sex, the passion is just so alive, no touching yourselves"

 

0:52:14.9 DB: You no longer have agency.

 

0:52:16.3 Sarah: Right. Like, we're children again. And then we had my bishop who was like, "Please get to know each other before you have sex." And we talked about it as a couple, and we decided, "Okay, what is appropriate for us? What do we feel like we can handle? What's our plan in case we start to feel overwhelmed? What happens if I have a traumatic response? And what are our boundaries?" And we talked about those things that people don't talk about in their marriage for years. And it just set us up on what I thought was the perfect happy ever after.

 

0:52:51.2 Sarah: So, we get married in the temple. We have a great sex life for a couple of months and then I can't get there. I can't climax. And I remember, [chuckle] it was Valentine's night, I had bought, on a meager student income, I had bought this red piece of lingerie and I was so excited. And I was anticipating it so much and looking forward to connecting so much, and then I was feeling the feeling, feeling the build-up and then, boom, exhaustion, can't get there. My husband gets up and puts his garments back on and I just remember thinking, "Oh my gosh, I'm so broken. I am so broken." And that was my spiral back down hill, that night. That's when everything changed from it being something that my husband and I participate in together where my pleasure matters as much as his pleasure, and we need to be clear that my bit does. My husband has never once pressured me, he's always been 100% understanding. We both just didn't have the tools. So, this is the spiral of...

 

0:54:06.0 DB: You not only didn't have the tools, 'cause that's my concern in general, is no one's taught how to have intimate relationships, sex and orgasm. Who teaches that? But you're up against also trauma.

 

0:54:20.1 Sarah: Yeah.

 

0:54:21.3 DB: And so you've got a few fronts here that you're battling, and this is happening at this moment. So, where do you go from there?

 

0:54:29.3 Sarah: So months progress and I'm just becoming increasingly more depressed and I'm feeling increasingly more isolated. I started seeing a different therapist, I had moved, so I had a different therapist. It was a sex therapist. And the sex therapist kept telling me it's this trauma that's in the way of you being able to connect with your husband, and I was sitting there saying, "It's not the trauma. I've worked through so much of the trauma. Of course, I have bad nights where something triggers me and I can identify the trigger and work through it, but it's not the trauma that's preventing me from this." So I tried a different sex therapists, and I tried an OB-GYN. And I tried a different OB-GYN. And the problem was, is I would feel the build-up and I would... We'd be in the moment and we'd be feeling really, really good, and then I would just hit this wall of exhaustion. And it felt like I was being knocked off my feet. And it was time and time and time again, and I just started feeling like, "I'm only here to be like this vessel for other men's pleasure. And it's not... My husband's not making me feel this way, this is how God designed my body to be a vessel for other men's pleasure, not my own, for other men's pleasure."

 

0:55:45.1 Sarah: And that was the beginning of just months, years of severe depression and anxiety, and it got so bad that I had suicidal ideation. Because my husband and I have always been able to be so transparent from the beginning, I was able to disclose to him, that I was having these ideations and he said, "Okay, you've gotta get help, like this is obviously not working." It terrified him enough that I could see on his face of like just the idea of that was so scary, I don't think I could ever go through with it, which kind of brought me back to reality. But... So, nothing's changing, I'm just super depressed. I'm seeing doctors who are saying, "We're just gonna prescribe you these anti-depressants, it will kill your libido. Here's some anti-anxiety, work on your trauma." So I start EMDR. And so, for those of the listeners, it's a great form of trauma therapy where you process it without really describing it, so you're not re-victimizing yourself, you're processing more of what your body is holding on to. So, I go through it and I'm like, That's not the trauma. It's not... There's something that's stopping me, physio... My physical body is stopping me.

 

0:57:01.0 Sarah: There's something in the way. I can feel it. So again, I'm just hopeless. No one's believing me. Every single person is telling me it's your trauma, which was at this point, more traumatic than my trauma.

 

0:57:13.5 DB: Interesting, yes. I was actually gonna point that out and... Well, I won't jump ahead here. I wanna reflect back on that but... So what was it? What did you end up discovering?

 

0:57:27.2 Sarah: So I... So we move out of state, and I'm talking to this woman in my new ward and something... She was a doula. So for those who aren't aware of what a doula is, they're basically a birthing partner. So they... She professionally goes in and helps women deliver their babies as their advocate, and I had... She had mentioned to me that what got her interested in it was she had had a traumatic response giving birth because she had been molested as a child, and that resurfaced for her during her birth. And I was like, "Holy crap. That might happen to me." And so I disclosed to her my history of sexual assault, and then I disclosed to her my problem of not being able to climax. And she didn't bat an eye. She said, "Oh, go visit a pelvic floor physical therapist." And she gave me a name. So I made this appointment and I go in, and at this point, I have kind of like this PTSD from visiting providers. 'Cause none of them believe me. Everyone is telling me... It ranges from, "It's your trauma," to, "Let go of how you view yourself. Your body image part... " And I'm like, "I've never once said that I don't like the way I look in sex."

 

[laughter]

 

0:58:36.5 Sarah: Everyone's pointing out these emotional things or these things that we've put on women that I'm like, "It's none of those. I'm not telling you like... Listen to me, please." So I walk in, and I sit down, and she started crying, this physical therapist, and she said, "You are the hardest client to get in my doors because everyone gives up on you."

 

0:59:01.7 DB: Mm-hmm. Yes. Gives up on you in the sense of they think it's something else?

 

0:59:09.4 Sarah: Yes.

 

0:59:09.6 DB: Yes.

 

0:59:09.9 Sarah: They think it's something else. And she said, "It is so common." She said the clients who have it the most are religious clients, which I think is ironic.

 

0:59:17.2 DB: That's well-studied, actually.

 

0:59:18.1 Sarah: Very religious people and athletes. And I was both. So she... I remember her saying, "You'll have an orgasm within a month." And I was going like, "Yeah, right."

 

0:59:27.8 DB: So let me pause you there before we get on to the healing, hopefully, is...

 

[laughter]

 

0:59:32.4 DB: That's what I was wanting to speak to, is in no way is this a criticism. I am so thankful for the research and the skills that trauma therapists and trauma training in general has brought to clinicians. However, what I'm seeing is an imbalance in assessment. A lot of clinicians are jumping to trauma, which isn't wrong, and trauma is still playing a part of your life.

 

1:00:04.3 Sarah: Totally.

 

1:00:07.5 DB: However, there's... Your body is made up of a bunch of more things than just trauma and just the things that you were bringing up. Everything needs to be explored, and I think that's a critical part of assessment. And I'm in a tricky spot as a male therapist who often will engage in thorough assessment. Like yes, fully recognize there's trauma. Is there potentially anything else biologically going on, emotionally going on that's disconnected from that? And that's often perceived as minimizing trauma, and it's a tricky place to be in because... Absolutely, there's trauma there, but I'm seeing a lot of what's happening, what happened to you, where your actual health concern wasn't related to the trauma, at least not the majority of it. And finally, somebody found out. You found the right person, rather, and they guided you. So do you mind sharing what the procedure was? I think I know where you're going with this.

 

1:01:04.1 Sarah: Yeah. So it was just pelvic floor physical therapy. So it was all internal work. So basically she inserted her fingers into my vagina and was able to release the tension. And what she said that was so profound was she said... And at this point, I have my MSW, and I'm like, "I'm a therapist. I'm gonna be a therapist. This is my passion." So I'm talking to her about all these terms, and she's like, "Yeah, don't you guys like read that book, The Body Keeps the Score, and don't you guys understand that you hold trauma in your body?" And I was like, "Yes. Actually, I do know that." And she's like, "Well, where do you think you hold it?" And I said, "Well, I don't know. Like my whole body?" She said, "In your pelvic floor." Mind blown, right? So what she did is in her assessment, she found that... And she likened it to bicep curls. She said, "Your vaginal walls have to go up and down like you would do a bicep for you to orgasm." And she said, "Yours are so tight that they can't loosen. They can't physically make that sensation happen. They can't have that... They won't.

 

1:02:15.0 Sarah: So we did some exercises and I had to relearn how to do certain things. I had to essentially learn how to orgasm, and that was the beginning of happiness. That was the beginning of the fairy tale, for me, it was. [chuckle] Learning, becoming one with my body, and when I say one with my body, for anyone who has a period, who has a uterus, who has a pelvic floor, that includes you man, understand what's going on with your pelvic floor. That is where you're holding your stress, where you're holding your trauma. And since then, I have been able to identify when I suck in, and I know I do it. When I am triggered or when I'm stressed, or if I'm uncomfortable or if I'm feeling vulnerable, I can suck in my muscles, and I feel it. It's like this, "Please don't look at me," and I'm sucking in. It's totally this trauma-fear response, and I can now push myself back out and to relax, and I have control of what's going on with me. And that's the first time that's ever happened. I was able to orgasm. We have a great sex life now. We've had... Since had a baby and that didn't break me. I thought that was gonna ruin me again. I wasn't afraid to have a child, and it helped bringing a child in. I used the same things that I learned in therapy, and I survived.

 

1:03:46.8 DB: What a story. Not a story. What a life.

 

1:03:51.8 Sarah: Yeah.

 

[laughter]

 

1:03:52.7 DB: My goodness, that journey. So was it... What the doctor did, did that get you to successful orgasm? Was there other things that you did to help yourself along?

 

1:04:03.3 Sarah: Yeah, so basically, what she would do is she would use her fingers on muscles and release them so much like you would lengthen a muscle or much like going to the gym, right? You learn how to turn your muscles on and off when you're lifting weights, and she helped me learn how to do that, then I had to learn how to breathe again. 'Cause I was breathing incorrectly, like who even knows that you can breathe incorrectly. But I was breathing in, sucking in, doing... Any time I worked out, sucking in, holding that pelvic floor in tight. I learned to masturbate. That was a big one, right, learning my body.

 

1:04:42.2 DB: What is the purpose of that? Just to... Was it to help heal? Or what was the purpose of masturbating?

 

1:04:47.9 Sarah: The purpose of that was to, A, figure out how my body worked, right? How... What feels good? Now that I know my body can react to pleasure, what feels good? We started over, basically. So... And that came from... And this is the part that blows my mind is how we expect our young people or any people to walk into a marriage not knowing their body. So I learned my body with that. I've helped my husband learn my body, so his confidence grew, my confidence grew, our intimacy was connected. For the first time, it felt like it was a partnered experience.

 

1:05:23.8 DB: This is important for a lot of Latter-day saints to understand. And I'm not gonna sit here and say that masturbation should be a part of everyone's life. However, when we as... Especially Latter-day saints who are clinicians make a blanket statement, which I've seen recently in social media and some pretty well-respected therapists who are LDS, say that any therapist who encourages masturbation is not in line with their faith, right? It's... Yeah, thanks for the eye roll.

 

[laughter]

 

1:06:07.1 DB: It's... The potential damage of that message is destructive to say the least. I've seen so many women who have been abused, who have had similar life experiences, and they carry that on with them because that message was communicated to them, and they feel understanding their body is breaking some eternal covenant.

 

1:06:40.7 Sarah: Oh. Totally.

 

1:06:42.8 DB: It's the only thing we see... In the medical industry that seems to be the exception within our faith, is you go to a doctor and get some drugs to help you or you do... And I hate to use that analogy because I don't even think they're the same in a sense of risks or anything like that. But masturbation is a form of learning your body.

 

1:07:04.4 Sarah: Right.

 

1:07:04.9 DB: Especially when you've been abused, where somebody has had control over your sexual narrative, not just story-wise, not from church history or your church upbringing, but somebody has abused you, you need a way to reclaim your sexual identity or to even claim it. And you never did. And masturbation... Well, a lot of people... I get to push back in, say, "Well, that's what you do in marriage. You're not... You don't understand."

 

[laughter]

 

1:07:34.8 DB: It's still involving somebody, yes. Yes, you can. Even though you trust your partner, there's a reality to being able to own your own body, and when you do that, you could bring your whole self to the table. But if you do it as a part, especially in something as intimate and vulnerable as this... I'm not gonna say it's impossible, but it's really, really difficult to have your... Own my sexual identity.

 

1:08:02.6 Sarah: Yes, totally.

 

1:08:03.8 DB: You will always carry some form of a identity from your partner in that, and that's not owning your own sexual identity.

 

1:08:13.1 Sarah: No, not at all.

 

1:08:13.2 DB: And as... I guess another side note, a lot of men misunderstanding... Women don't know this either is... Or probably just as much, men don't understand their body either. Just because they ejaculate doesn't mean they had an orgasm. And when I tell men that they're like, "What? What are you talking about?" You need to learn how to have an orgasm. It doesn't always come naturally, and I think men really mistake that also. Not to divert from your... I think that was an important concept that you brought up, that I think men also fail to understand.

 

1:08:46.3 Sarah: Yeah.

 

1:08:46.3 DB: It's important for us to learn our bodies just as much.

 

1:08:49.5 Sarah: Well, and this is kind of the one thing that will probably influence my parenting the most, [chuckle] when it comes to sexual health, is I didn't know what bad felt like because I didn't know what good felt like.

 

1:09:04.2 DB: Exactly.

 

1:09:05.0 Sarah: Right? So all of these horrible things are happening to me, and I'm like, "Ugh, this is what good is? Well, good sucks." And I would talk to women, and they would say like, "Oh, you'll just know when you'll know." And it's like... I'm like, "Please give me some concrete understanding of how my body works." When I could have discovered that at an appropriate age as a teenager and learned myself, how to know my body, when my body needs help, when I need help, when something's wrong and not working correctly, I could have learned that and taken all of that lesson into marriage. And instead what happened was I did... I had years of sexual assault. I had years of feeling so isolated and feeling so alone and forgotten by a Heavenly Father, because at the same time, I'm like, "Where the heck is Heavenly Mother if I can't... Who is gonna tell me how my female body works?" And so I have this huge faith transition and this huge faith crisis, and it's like, "I could have learned this lesson. All of this could have been avoided if someone could have given me the tools and the vocabulary to know." And that's why I'm super passionate about 'cause...

 

1:10:32.0 DB: I love it. I love it.

 

[laughter]

 

1:10:32.1 Sarah: 'Cause it doesn't need to be this way.

 

1:10:33.0 DB: I'm so happy that things are healing for you, and not just healing, it sounds like you're really thriving, and you're using this as an opportunity to share your passion, your education. I do wanna revisit it if you have time.

 

1:10:49.7 Sarah: Sure.

 

1:10:50.2 DB: What is your view on... So you made a comment at the beginning about the pornography and how your views have changed. I'd be curious to explore that. So how do you view... So... I don't wanna move on too quickly or confuse topics, but let me quickly summarize. Because of the lack of education and the modesty teachings, you took on this responsibility that you are responsible for men, period, regardless of age. What a burden. What a scary thing. And as you started to heal, you discovered that you get to have a body, you get to have your own sexual desires, you get to heal, and I thought it was interesting that you also experienced a faith crisis, which I do see. And this is so unnecessary in the sense that if we just teach good sex ed or answer the questions and not be afraid of... Because we're answering questions, that's why I set up my group as, ask all the questions you want.

 

1:11:52.9 Sarah: Yeah.

 

1:11:53.3 DB: I don't care how crazy you feel like they are or taboo, we have to discuss these things. It doesn't necessarily give you permission to do it. I don't know why we think about it that way. But I've seen others where in their 40s or 50s, they realize, "Oh, my goodness, if I can't believe my church leaders on this," then they experience, "We don't have to have that experience."

 

1:12:17.1 Sarah: We don't have to.

 

1:12:17.1 DB: I mean, this isn't like church history, or Blacks and the priesthood, or... Sorry, I don't wanna equate those, but the point is, is we have that understanding now, we have good medical research and science. And a leeway now or a segue into what do you understand now about porn, and how it did or didn't contribute or affect the narrative that you were taught?

 

1:12:43.2 Sarah: So now my opinion is I don't necessarily want the church to talk about sex, period. Like I just want them to say, "Have sex."

 

1:12:51.8 DB: Porn, sex, anything.

 

1:12:53.0 Sarah: Yes, because there's just... It doesn't... They don't belong in the bedroom. And why I say that is because it's so personal and what works for one person is not gonna work for another person. And first of all, until they can come with me with the clinical understanding that professionals have of hundreds of hours of education, the narrative is not gonna change. And with that... So... And part of this came through my own clinical education was understanding that porn is not currently a classifiable addiction. And understanding what makes an addiction an addiction and what makes pornography not an addiction helped me understand my behavior is my behavior and their behavior is their behavior.

 

1:13:48.0 DB: I couldn't have said it better. That's exactly right.

 

1:13:51.2 Sarah: And my sexuality is my sexuality and my husband's sexuality is his. At the beginning of our marriage, we felt so responsible for each other. And through this process of learning, "Okay, I have my own body that has its own needs, and I'm a higher desiring partner, you have your body that has needs, and you're the lower desiring partner, how do we make this marriage work? Came through accepting, "Okay, we've got to find tools to add to our tool belt for when we have differences in expectation, when we have differences in needs," and part of that's come through accepting not all porn is bad. And people always...

 

1:14:32.1 DB: So let's...

 

1:14:34.0 Sarah: Porn is such a hot topic. It's such a buzzword right now.

 

1:14:35.8 DB: Just for the sake of the listener, 'cause I know already they're...

 

1:14:39.0 Sarah: People are freaking out.

 

1:14:39.4 DB: Freaking out right now. And you clarify... Just based on what little we've talked about, I'm gonna clarify then you correct me or you add to is one of the biggest problems is... I've talked with thousands of people now, and I'm yet to hear the same definition of porn from two people.

 

1:15:02.0 Sarah: Totally.

 

1:15:04.2 DB: I have... I'm saying this not out of criticism. Everybody has the choice to do what they feel is best, but this is where it gets problematic when I'm working with a couple who wants a divorce over finding out that one had watched an R-rated movie because it had some...

 

1:15:19.7 Sarah: Right.

 

[laughter]

 

1:15:19.7 DB: And for those who...

 

1:15:22.6 Sarah: It's serious, I think.

 

1:15:22.7 DB: Treat that very serious... I'm not minimizing you, but this is the core of the problem. And so when I hear you say that not all porn is bad... That's what I think I'm hearing from you. Is that what you're saying?

 

1:15:34.0 Sarah: Yes and... Okay, so let's take it back even to that abusive relationship where I said that he was... He disclosed that he was watching porn. At the time he was like, "Oh I'm a porn addict. I've been a porn addict since I was 14." He was looking at porn twice a week. And it was straight porn. Man, woman, missionary porn. And now to think that he was carrying around that burden of thinking he was a porn addict, I'm like, "No wonder you didn't listen to me say 'No'. You had already lost."

 

1:16:06.8 DB: He was carrying that weight.

 

1:16:06.9 Sarah: You had already felt like you were out of control of your behavior. You had already said you were an addict, which... You don't have responsibility for your behavior. In that sense, I just feel compassion for him. And I feel compassion for anyone who's carrying around that.

 

1:16:20.9 DB: So many people are probably thinking right now, "You are justifying and you are sympathizing with your abuser." And I'm not hearing that at all. What I'm hearing from you is a solution. If we want to solve this abuse problem, this is not minimizing his porn use. It's... Or porn in any degree. It's what works. Think about any person. I can't imagine... Like that 14-year-old that I was talking about at the beginning, or what you... I can't imagine what you experienced thinking you were responsible for all men's desires and how you carry that and how that makes you now respond. Again, I'm not excusing people's bad behavior, but if we want a solution, we gotta actually talk about the problem and how to fix it. And that's, "Stop putting fear people."

 

1:17:17.6 Sarah: Into everything. Into sex. Leave it out. And I'm... To clarify, I'm not pro-porn either. There's horrific things that happen in that industry, but what I'm seeing is, "Can it have a spot in individual relationships?" And this is a vulnerable thing for me thing for me to say, but when I was learning my own body I was watching porn. Because A, it was a safe place for me to engage in sexual activity in what felt like partnered sex, which was allowing me to feel like I could let my husband in and to learn a little bit from it. I was learning... "Okay, okay. They're turning things up. I'm gonna try turning things up." And it helped. And...

 

1:18:06.0 DB: The mechanics.

 

1:18:07.8 Sarah: Yes.

 

1:18:08.2 DB: It... Well... No, no. It goes beyond mechanics. It goes into just every aspect of sex. Where do you learn that from? You don't learn that from a... You learn maybe basic mechanics from a textbook or from maybe a good sex therapist book or something like that. But a lot of people learn through visual learning.

 

1:18:28.2 Sarah: Right, and that's how... I'm a visual learner. And this is the difference between me watching porn and a 14-year-old watching porn. I'm a grownup. I know that it's staged. I know that there's stop and go, that there's clips, that there's enhancement drugs. I know that it's entertainment and not reality. A 14-year-old doesn't necessarily know that. I've had experience of going, "Oh yeah, it's awkward. And you queef and you laugh. And there's all these embarrassing things that happen and you still love each other. And you go back and try again." That doesn't happen when we're young and impulsive and adolescent and we're trying to figure things out. It's adult entertainment for a reason. So my views on porn have changed a little bit. Again, I'm not pro-porn. But what I am pro is allowing...

 

1:19:18.6 DB: Education.

 

1:19:20.2 Sarah: My partner to have his own sexuality.

 

1:19:21.2 DB: Oh. Sorry. Yes, yes, yes.

 

1:19:22.9 Sarah: And education, and that comes with... A good experience of this was right after we had our baby, I was three weeks postpartum going, "What is wrong with me. I need to have an orgasm, and I'm not supposed to need this right now, I'm not supposed to want this." Right? I just had a baby, I'm supposed to be so anti-sex and so anti-touch. What's wrong with me? Again, why am I craving this?" And Googling like, "Is it okay to masturbate right after you've had a baby." In the internet, of course, because who am I gonna ask? I just still feel like I don't know who to ask. Should probably asked the sex therapist but... And being like, "No, I'm normal. This is normal." But then at the same time, not necessarily wanting to engage in partnered sex and allowing my husband to have his needs and not feeling responsible for it. It doesn't mean he doesn't love me. It doesn't mean I don't turn him on anymore. It just means, "Listen, Babe, I'm not in the mood. I can't get there. I want you to still have your needs taken care of. Maybe we can do something together, watch something together, you feel you. I sit here and nurse this child. And you do you Babe." [laughter] That is what I'm talking about. Let's allow people to figure it out for themselves instead of putting fear and shame, and, "If you look at porn, you don't love your partner." Let's leave that out of the equation. That's not a part of it at all.

 

1:20:56.2 DB: We can... My goodness, you are saying things that I've been trying to communicate for a long time, and this concept of... We don't have control over our partners' bodies or their desires, nor should we.

 

1:21:13.4 Sarah: Never.

 

1:21:15.3 DB: It would be wrong. Absolutely wrong, and I know people are gonna say, "Well, is not the same." "You can only eat dinner when I'm eating dinner. We could only work out when we're working out together." In any other situation, we would see that as abuse or controlling or manipulative. But when we... And again, for... My wife and I love to work out together, and I actually hate working out when I'm not working out with her. That's a little different. 'Cause it's something we really love to do together. But if I go work out, she's not gonna say, "Why are you doing that?"

 

1:21:51.0 Sarah: Yeah, "You're cheating on me."

 

[laughter]

 

1:21:51.9 DB: "You're cheating on me." I know a lot of people are gonna, "No, they're not the same." Well, they kind of are in the sense of, you're still an individual. And you still have desires, needs, and I love this... The example you gave, you just gave birth. And... Or he may have his desires and you are not ready to be there yet.

 

1:22:13.6 Sarah: Yeah, I couldn't show up without resent. And I don't want resent in my marriage. I don't want that in my sex. I don't want it in my behavior, and if he can have his own sexuality and I can have mine, there's no place for resentment. There's no need. So it's... What it has done is that I have stopped crying myself to sleep when I feel like my needs haven't been taken care of or I can't fulfill his. He has stopped feeling like he's not the macho man who isn't providing for me and blah, blah, blah, that silly narrative. He's in school right now, as well as working. So he... A lot of times I'm like, "Babe, let's get it going." And he's like, "I haven't stopped thinking in 16 hours."

 

1:22:56.0 DB: Exactly.

 

1:22:57.5 Sarah: Am I supposed to just be like, "Ugh. Fine, you never take care of me." Absolutely not. I take care of myself. It's not his responsibility. And at the same time, when he wants to show up for me, he might need a little help. And maybe he's gonna... He might look at something or he might listen to something, or he might watch something to help him get it started and then come and join me.

 

1:23:22.3 DB: So you just answered my next question is, there's gonna be a lot of people who say, "Well, then if he can do that, if you can do that, then why do you need each other?" And that is the prime... I don't know if it's the prime, but that is one of the biggest indicators of how poorly educated we are on sex and desire, and every single person, and I'm very careful with saying absolutes, but every single person I've talked to and worked with, who has that view, that differentiation, which is becoming a hot word now, "Is not appropriate or not." My rule of success is if it draws you closer to your wife, your husband, your spouse, and to the Lord, something's working. And so when I hear you say this, that's the education we need. Is not the shame, not the guilt, not the jealousy, like, "What are you doing? You're cheating on me." No. "You're doing what you need. So you could be with me."

 

1:24:23.7 Sarah: Right.

 

1:24:24.9 DB: And so I hate to have said all that just to say or ask, so have you noticed this improve your relationship?

 

1:24:32.2 Sarah: Oh, 100%. And what it's done is, it's taken away that expectation of... I don't know if I'm saying this right, but there's the expectation of unmet needs. And what I mean by that is like, if I shave my legs and we don't have sex, I'm pissed. I'm like, "Why did I shave my legs? [laughter] I took care of myself for what?" It's just taken away all of that. The transactions. Yes, it's not like, "I put forth this, I did the dishes. Now it's your respon... " There is none of that.

 

1:25:04.6 DB: You do it because you love and desire your partner.

 

1:25:07.6 Sarah: Yes. Yes. And again, it's not like we watch porn all the time. And it's not like it's even frequent. But what it does allow... And for those people who may be wondering "What is the boundary with that then?" And this is the boundary, if it... We have to disclose to each other, if it's gotten in the way of us having partnered sex.

 

1:25:28.5 DB: I love it. That's the rule of the relationship.

 

1:25:31.7 Sarah: Right. So if he has watched it and masturbated and I come in and I'm like, "Hey, Baby. Let's get things going." He has to let me know why. And you know this... That hasn't happened yet. He himself is not necessarily interested in porn use himself, but he's allowed me to have that if I need it. And I've allowed him to if he wants to explore it. And I don't even need to know what it is, right? 'Cause there's part of his sexuality, I don't own it, I don't need to know every aspect of it. Just the same way, I'm pretty sure there's things I don't want him to know about it. Like, "There's probably some fantasies I have that I don't necessarily want you to know about." And that's okay.

 

1:26:11.1 DB: Yes.

 

1:26:14.1 Sarah: So that's... That is what I think this conversation can look like, instead of so much fear and shame. It's, "Let's figure out how to make it work if we need it, if we want it. If we don't, great. Leave it out." Just like anything else.

 

1:26:27.9 DB: What a journey. This is... I'm sure the listeners are having a range of experiences and emotions.

 

[chuckle]

 

1:26:34.5 Sarah: I know they're probably like... Whiplash.

 

1:26:36.7 DB: We're going from the trauma to the healing... Not just the healing, like I've said, but the thriving and the tools that you're using, for the most part, at least within our culture, completely unconventional.

 

1:26:48.9 Sarah: Yeah.

 

1:26:49.5 DB: But these are not the stories we're hearing, but they're successful. I know, I'm gonna... I feel like I have to say it over and over again like you did. I'm not pro-porn, I'm pro-healing, and there's resources. And if we wanna provide Latter Day Saints with... I was just having this conversation with somebody a week or two ago about, "Do you feel like we as a church... " Well, not as... The church providing it, but Latter Day Saints should have a sex ed, nude course. He says, "Well... "

 

[laughter]

 

1:27:23.5 Sarah: That would be great.

 

1:27:26.2 DB: It's just, I don't think we have to do it all. But I do think there are effective and meaningful resources out there. But it's a valid question. If we're gonna improve our marital intimacy, and I'm not just talking sex, but everything about it. We have got to provide better 'how to'. And when we go through it, it's one of my biggest... Pet peeves with the manuals is, we always say... This whole theme has been today is what not to do, but then when we talk about what to do, love. Love you partner. What does that mean? I'm not mocking that, but I've been married to my absolutely amazing partner for over a decade now, and we're still learning what love means. And it's not at all... We had the seeds of it at the beginning.

 

1:28:16.6 Sarah: It's different. It's totally different.

 

1:28:19.4 DB: And it's things were not taught. We're not taught. And I agree with you, I don't think the church should be teaching us this stuff. But I think we could do an absolutely better job at teaching basic communication, basic consent, basic boundaries. And what does love really look like.

 

1:28:34.6 Sarah: And not shaming our normal physiological needs and behavior, right?

 

1:28:40.3 DB: Bingo.

 

1:28:41.2 Sarah: And not... I had this kind of mentality of, "Sex is for reproduction." And then like, "You might enjoy it a little bit."

 

1:28:48.6 DB: Yeah.

 

1:28:49.9 Sarah: Right? But it wasn't like, "Sex is supposed to be fulfilling. And I... Until I couldn't connect with my partner completely sexually, I didn't understand how much of me was missing in sex." And here's the bottom line. I want to say this with compassion for anyone who may feel different and for any survivors out there. But being abused didn't make me wanna kill myself. Not being able to be present with my partner in a loving, consensual, religiously sound bound marriage made me want to. And that is the difference.

 

1:29:24.1 DB: I'm glad you brought that up. That's hard to hear. I think a lot of people are gonna struggle with that. I don't wanna dilute what you just said. I think we've had a great discussion here, and I would love to have you back. And I think just to wrap up what you just said is, I think we prescribe the wrong... The issues we're having to the wrong problems. And I think it's important for us to be aware of that. I thank you for your journey. It's a vulnerable one. You're brave. And I appreciate you being completely open about it.

 

1:30:00.9 Sarah: Thank you.

 

1:30:01.0 DB: I felt like you have been and I think this will benefit a lot of people out there.

 

1:30:06.0 Sarah: Well, I hope so, because again, as I said, this was... My promise to myself is... And it's funny, 'cause it's not like this is an experience where I get up on the Sunday and I'm like, "I'd like to bring my testimony about all of this," it feels like it's a socially unacceptable trial, and so when I have the opportunity to share it with people who I know are seeking it. Oh, I'm present, I'm all in. 'cause no one needs to go through that alone. No one needs to go through a period. But if heaven forbid, people are going through it, I'm here with you.

 

1:30:43.4 DB: Thank you, Sarah.

 

1:30:44.5 Sarah: Thank you.

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Daniel Burgess Daniel Burgess

Questions and Answers with Jennifer Finlayson-Fife PhD

In this episode, Jennifer Finlayson-Fife PhD answers questions from our Improving Intimacy community. 

Here are the podcast episodes used for Book Club:

Ask A Mormon Sex Therapist, Part 16 - THE oft-cited Episode 16 that has positively impacted so many marriages!

Partner Desirability and High/Low Desire Dynamics

Virtue, Passion, and Owning Your Desire

You can also watch the Book Club Video Interview.

Full Transcript:

00:00 Narrator: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.

00:20 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. On today’s episode we have the wonderful Jennifer Finlayson-Fife, who we were honored to have as part of a recent book club in our community. If you aren’t aware, every month, the Improving Intimacy Facebook Group hosts a book club. So if you’re interested in that, feel free to come join the community and uh, sign up for those book club meetings. We held a little different format this time, because Jennifer doesn’t have a book! So, she was willing to take questions from our community. And what is about to follow is those discussions in that book club that we had recently, so I hope you enjoy. As always, please feel free to provide feedback or topics that you’d like covered in this podcast. I hope you enjoy.

01:07 Jennifer: The only event, I think, that isn't currently full is just one that we kinda last minute decided to do because we had an opportunity, a venue, which is doing The Art of Desire workshop in Alpine, Utah next week, a week from Thursday and Friday. So it's a two-day women's workshop. It's like my most popular course and workshop because it's a course focused on women's self and sexual development, and kind of rethinking the whole paradigm in which we've been inculturated, and how it really interferes with desire and development.

01:48 Jennifer: And so, it's a good one, it's, you know, it's taking my dissertation research into everything I've kinda learned since then. So that's in Alpine and we just posted the tickets for sale like three or four days ago, and we still have maybe 20 spots left, so if anybody is interested in it, you can get a ticket. On my website actually, on my homepage.

02:12 Ray: Wonderful. At this point, I have to admit that I did exactly what Ellen and I talked about that I wouldn't do, which is forget to mention that our other host tonight is Ellen Hersam, and... [chuckle]

02:27 Ray: So we've been accepting questions for the last 24 hours, and we had several that came in and we have picked three or four that we might get to, I don't know, however many we're able to get to tonight.

02:39 Jennifer: Sure.

02:40 Ray: And Ellen, why don't you pick up and can you give us a question?

02:44 Ellen: Sure. Happy to jump right in. Yeah, so we've got a few questions tonight. We thought we'd start off with this one. It's, "There's often debate around sex being a need or not, and how neediness isn't sexy, and how sex being a need kills desire. Yet many view sex as a need, not in life-or-death sense, but because they need that healthy sex life, helps them be happier both individually and as a couple. If sex isn't a need," so there's two parts here, "if sex isn't a need, what does this say about David Schnarch's Sexual Crucible?"

03:18 Ellen: "If any marriage would be improved by a healthy, intimate sexual relationship, how can it be said that sex isn't a need? If sex is a need, is... In this sense of being able to achieve personal growth, if I understand how Schnarch views marriage or the corresponding increase in marital satisfaction or individual happiness, how can we talk about its importance without killing desire? Or making one partner feel like it's their duty, instead of something they're doing for themselves, to increase their own happiness? I feel like if the couple isn't working toward a healthy sexual relationship, they're leaving something good and positive on the table, and missing a wonderful opportunity."

04:01 Jennifer: Okay, it's a good question, although I think the questioner is conflating the issue of... Well, I mean they're using the word "Need" in a way that kind of complicates it. I think when I say sex isn't a need, what I... If I have said that, what I mean is it's not a drive, it's not required for survival. Right? So a lot of times, people try to pressure their partner to have sex with them by putting it in the frame that they need it, meaning...

04:32 Jennifer: And my issue with that is if you're gonna talk about need, need is a way of trying to pressure their partner to manage and accommodate you without sort of taking responsibility for what you want. That's why I don't like it. So if you're gonna talk about need, then I'm thinking more about the issue of survival, and nobody needs sex to survive, 'cause as I've said, if that were true, there'd be a lot of dead people in our wards. And...

04:57 Ray: Oh my goodness.

04:59 Daniel: Maybe that's a good thing. [laughter] [overlapping conversation]

05:05 Daniel: And so Jennifer, is what I'm hearing you say is, is more of a manipulative tone...

05:10 Jennifer: Yes.

05:11 Daniel: Tone? Okay.

05:12 Jennifer: Yeah, exactly. And as soon as you start trying to manipulate, which many people do this, the higher-desire person tends to do this... And men are given that script a lot, that they need sex and so on. But as Mormons, we should be the least prone to that idea because we are fine, from a theological perspective, with people going without sex for their whole lives. Okay? So, now that said, I think sex is a part of thriving. Intimate sex is a part of thriving. It's part of a marriage thriving, and I wouldn't so much say that you must have sex in order for a marriage to be good. I wouldn't... Also, I wouldn't say you need for a marriage to be good in order to have sex.

05:57 Jennifer: I'm just saying that marriage... Meaning good sex is a part of thriving, but good sex is not something you manipulate or pressure into place. And lots of people try and don't believe me when I say that. [chuckle] So we all want to be desired, but the hard thing about being desired is you can't make somebody desire you.

06:20 Jennifer: Desire is a grace. And the more we try to control it and get somebody to give it to us, the less desirable we are. And the more that it feels like an obligation, or you're having sex with your partner just to get them off your back, or to get them to stop bugging you, or moping, or you know, whatever, and even if you get the sex you still don't feel desired. And so it's tough, it's a tough business, because the very thing we want, we don't have control over getting, we only have control over how desirable we are.

06:56 Ellen: So part of their question that I think I wanna highlight a little bit, is they say, "How can we talk about its importance without killing desire?" So without...

07:05 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, because people are talking about its importance as a way to manipulate often. Right?

07:11 Ellen: Mm-hmm.

07:12 Jennifer: Like they're just saying it like... I was working with a couple of recently, and it was sort of, you know, "I'm focused on this marriage growing, that's why I wanna try all these new things with you." And so, they are using the idea of their standing up for a good marriage as a way to pressure the other person.

07:30 Ellen: Yes, so not making it manipulative?

07:31 Jennifer: Yeah. And I think you can be standing up for a good marriage and a good partnership by dealing with yourself. Dealing with the issue of your desirability. That doesn't preclude you from talking about the sexual relationship, but a lot of us are, because it's so easy to do it as human beings, we're much more focused on what we think we need our spouse to do, either stop pressuring us so much, or get their act together and go to Jennifer's The Art of Desire course, or something. [chuckle]

08:01 Jennifer: I have sometimes the men go and buy the course and then, a day later they ask for a refund, 'cause their wife doesn't wanna go, but... [chuckle]

08:11 Ellen: Yes, that makes sense. [chuckle]

08:13 Jennifer: So they're pressuring more on what the other person needs to do, as opposed to, "What is my role in an unsatisfying sexual relationship?" And I don't mean to say you can't talk about it and address what your spouse isn't doing, but oftentimes, we're so much more drawn to what our spouse is doing wrong, than how we're participating in the problem, and it keeps people stuck.

08:38 Ellen: Yeah, and they mentioned right at the beginning, this neediness isn't sexy.

08:42 Jennifer: Exactly.

08:42 Ellen: So if somebody is approaching this conversation in a relationship about their desire to have sex, and being in a relationship, a sexual relationship, they could essentially be approaching it in this neediness. And I think it sounds like their question is, "How can I approach it and not be killing desire by this neediness, but also be addressing the importance of intimacy and sexual relationship in the marriage?"

09:07 Jennifer: It sounds maybe like I'm not answering the question, but you have to confront...

09:12 Ellen: Maybe I'm not. [chuckle]

09:13 Jennifer: Oh no, no, not you. I'm saying me 'cause I'm gonna say something that maybe sounds like I'm not answering it, but...

09:18 Ellen: Okay.

09:19 Jennifer: I think you have to kinda confront that you are using the frame of neediness to get the other person to take care of you. Right? So, "I feel so bad about myself, I feel so undesirable, I feel so depressed when we're not having sex, and so for the love, give it to me." Okay? So you can do that, you might even get some sex, but you're not gonna get a passionate marriage. You're not gonna get the experience of being on an adventure together where you try new things.

09:51 Jennifer: So you have to deal with the fact that marriage is not designed, in my opinion, and I see this, we kind of learn the idea that marriage is mutual need fulfillment, and that's the wrong model in my opinion. That it's not about, "You prop up my sense of self, and I'll prop up yours." Because that just doesn't work, it breaks down very quickly.

10:16 Ellen: Absolutely... [overlapping conversation]

10:18 Jennifer: Yeah, that's what's happening when you date, but it only lasts for those few months. Okay? [chuckle]

10:23 Ellen: Yeah. [chuckle]

10:24 Jennifer: Because it's a short timespan. In marriage, you really have to handle your sense of self. You have to sustain your sense of self. If you're approaching your spouse, if you can sustain your sense of self, you're approaching your spouse from the position of, "I desire you. I love you, I like you, I like being with you." And it's real. Not, "Do You Love Me? Do you desire me? Am I enough?" Because that's not... A lot of people when they say, "How was it?" They mean "How was I?" Right?

10:53 Ellen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

10:54 Jennifer: And people know that... They instinctively know what's actually happening. Are you touching your spouse 'cause you want them to validate you sexually? Are you touching them because you really do desire them, and find them attractive, and you can stand on your own, and sustain your sense of self? And a lot of us don't even track that's what we're doing.

11:16 Ellen: I think that goes to say a lot to what you had spoken about in your first podcast that we had linked to this book club, where you had done the role play, where you stood in for the husband and spoke what he would say to his spouse in that sexless marriage, but it was what you're saying here. He came across as, "This is what I need. This is where I stand."

11:38 Jennifer: Yes.

11:38 Ellen: And, "This is what I'm looking for. I love you. And this is where I'm at." It was less of, "This is what I... I'm in need."

11:47 Jennifer: Exactly.

11:48 Ellen: It was more important for our marriage.

11:48 Jennifer: That's right. He's talking about what he wants from a marriage, what he really is standing up for, but he doesn't sound needy.

11:57 Ellen: Yes. Yeah.

11:58 Jennifer: It's not about, "Hey, you have to give it to me. Please, oh please, oh please." It's like he's sustaining his own sense of self in that conversation.

12:07 Ellen: Yeah, yeah. I'd wanted to dig into this question. I'm not the one who wrote it, but I wanted to give this person the opportunity to kind of hear out the full... I'm feeling satisfied with it. I don't know who wrote it, but if they have any additional questions, they're welcome to jump in. Otherwise, I wanna give time to more questions. I know, Ray, we were gonna tag team it. Do you have a second question to go?

12:36 Ray: I do. [chuckle]

12:36 Ray: So this is a honeymoon question. So, "As I've recently heard you and other LDS podcasters talk about how newlyweds can have a better honeymoon. Thank you, this conversation is sorely needed. However, I'm disappointed that it so often addresses only the new husband's likely transgressions, while ignoring the new wife's. This makes the conversation feel very one-sided and blaming. I would love to hear you tackle the other half of the problem with equal energy, to round out the conversation by talking just as bluntly to future wives about what they need to know and do, to make their first sexual experience a good one. Cinderella will wreck a honeymoon just as completely as the inattentive two-minute groom we talked about so often."

13:20 Jennifer: Yeah, I mean, probably the reason why I focus on the men is in part because we are so male-focused in our notions of sexuality, and so lots of men come into marriage, and LDS men specifically, in a kind of unacknowledged entitled position. Right?

13:39 Jennifer: So it's kind of like, "I've... This is my prize for having remained virginal all this time, and this is... " And they have learned about sexuality in the frame of, "Women exist to gratify this urge within men." So very often, the couple is complicit in that framing, meaning they come by it honestly, but that's their understanding. And so, it often goes that the woman has a very unsatisfying experience, and they both are kind of participating in this idea that the sexuality is primarily about the man.

14:22 Jennifer: Okay so, "This person wants me to have equal energy." [chuckle] "It's challenging, I don't know if I can generate it or not." [chuckle] But I guess what I would say to a future woman is just everything I say in The Art of Desire course. Right? Which is that your sexuality is as important as the man's sexuality, and this is a partnership. Right? And that if you frame it in this idea that this is a gift you're giving to your future husband, you can say goodbye to positive sexual experiences, because that frame will kill it. 14:54 Jennifer: And so, even though it's the frame you've been taught, and you've also probably been taught the idea that... I'm assuming you all... Yeah, okay, good. I thought I'd lost you, Ray. The idea that your selflessness and your sacrifice is gonna be fundamental to the marriage being happy, and that you are partly responsible for your husband's happiness sexually and in the marriage... That sounds a little bit wrong for me to say it like that, but basically you kind of shoulder this responsibility of him being happy, especially sexually, that that framing is going to make you unhappy in the marriage, it will kill intimacy, and will be a part of you disliking sex soon enough.

15:43 Jennifer: So you must think of it as a shared experience. And I would probably be talking to women about how important it is for them to... If they are relatively naive coming into marriage, how important it is for them to take the time to understand their own capacity for arousal and orgasm, and to not make the focus be intercourse, but mutual arousal, mutual pleasure, and that this is a team sport, and that taking the time to be together in this process, which is... Intercourse and orgasm are not as important as being together in this process of creating something mutual, shared, and desirable by both of you, is extremely important and you ought not move into a passive position, even though you maybe have learned that's the proper way for a woman to be sexually.

16:42 Jennifer: That you are a co-constructor of this relationship, and if you take that position, it's a devaluation of yourself and will interfere with the marriage developing as a partnership. So yeah, I have way more to say on it than that, because I've just... That's kind of like my main passion. But yeah, but that's what I would say is right.

17:07 Ellen: Jennifer, I'd even jump in to say, on your third podcast that we posted, The Virtue, Passion, and Owning your Desire, you spoke a lot to that point of, "Are you ready as a woman to take on being part of the relationship equally?"

17:23 Jennifer: Yeah. Right.

17:25 Ellen: And step into that role. And I thought that was really important to pull out.

17:30 Jennifer: Yeah, so I think one of the things that we just posted today, a quote from one of the podcasts I did recently, was just that a lot of us are tempted to hide behind a partner. You know? To not really step up and be in an equal position, and a lot of times we talk about that, as the male oppresses the female, but I think what feminism hasn't articulated as clearly as it's talked about that dynamic of oppression is how... Like the upside of being Cinderella in a sense. Do you know that fantasy that someone's gonna caretake you, and protect you from the big bad world, and sort of you can just sort of hide in their shadow.

18:13 Ellen: There's comfort in that.

18:14 Jennifer: Yeah, there's comfort in it for many of us. And we're... So that's why we're complicit in creating an unequal marriage, is we want a caretaker more than we want a partner.

18:23 Ellen: Yeah, so I'd even go to say that there's familiarity in that.

18:26 Jennifer: Oh absolutely. It's... Right, you know? We grew up watching Cinderella.

18:30 Ellen: Exactly.

18:30 Jennifer: You know? [chuckle]

18:32 Jennifer: I mean, I was looking for somebody to ride in on a horse, for sure. You know? [chuckle]

18:36 Ellen: Literally a horse, a white horse.

18:38 Jennifer: Exactly. Exactly. And I remember my first year of marriage and I was actually in a PhD program, I was 29 years old. And my, just my IQ dropped in the first year. I know that sounds ridiculous, but I just started... I had earned all my own money for my mission, for college, I had lived independently for years. Okay? I get married and I start like, I don't know, just doing dumb things, like parking in a tow zone because I thought John had told me it was okay to park there.

19:09 Jennifer: It sounds stupid. I would never have done this in a million years if I had... I was just sort of moving into the frame that I knew, and even my husband was like, "What's going on? Why did you do that?" I'm like, "I don't know, I don't know." [laughter]

19:23 Ellen: I got married. Why is my head so... "

19:26 Jennifer: Exactly. And almost it's like... It's almost in your DNA or something. Like you're just moving into what you've known. And so you have to catch yourself, that you sometimes are dumbing yourself down 'cause you think that's the way you'll keep yourself desirable.

19:42 Ellen: Yeah, I think that's a very good point. It's this idea that that keeps you desirable, but in fact, what keeps you desirable is that ability to make choices and be. And your...

19:53 Jennifer: Yeah. To have an... To have a self in the marriage.

19:56 Ellen: An identity. Yes.

19:57 Jennifer: Absolutely. And any... Any man or woman for that matter, who needs a partner to be under them, for them to feel strong, is a weak person. Right?

20:07 Ellen: Yeah. And you made that point actually in another one of your podcasts recently.

20:12 Jennifer: Yeah and I... I honestly was married to somebody who was like, "Wait, what are you doing? Don't do... " In that meaning he needed me not to do that, he had no need for me to do that. And so it was helping me stay awake to my own kind of blind movement in that direction.

20:31 Ellen: Yeah, and sometimes it just happens, you do it. It's almost this innate... Yes, like you said...

20:36 Jennifer: A hundred percent.

20:37 Ellen: It's an innate reaction and then, someone else finds that, "Oh, okay, we'll do [noise]" It becomes a pattern.

20:43 Jennifer: Absolutely.

20:44 Ellen: But you gotta get yourself out of that pattern.

20:46 Jennifer: Absolutely, and... Yeah, I... I still can do things like that, where if I'm with an intimidating male, I'll go into "Nice girl" instinctively, and just all of a sudden realize I'm throwing all my strength away like an idiot, and so it's just what is easy to do.

21:02 Ellen: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.

21:06 Ray: And perhaps that's actually another thing we don't do very well in preparing people to be married, is you've lived your whole life as an individual, and now you've gotta learn how to be in a relationship all the time with somebody. And if you've been on your own a long time, you're probably actually looking forward to being able to lean on a partner to help with... You know.

21:27 Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah. But "Lean on" might be a little different than the experience of partnering and sharing the burden, where "Lean on" is a little more of a dependency model, but the collaboration model is really where you have intimate partnerships. That, "How can I bring my strengths, and you bring your strengths to bear, and we can create something stronger and better together." But it's not dependency, in the kind of up-down way. Mm-hmm.

21:53 Ray: Yeah. And that was... That was not what I was implying, by the way, but yeah...

21:56 Jennifer: Yeah. Sure, sure. Yeah. I'm just a word Nazi, I have to say... [laughter] Because... Because words communicate meaning, so I'm like, "No, wrong meaning." But anyway. [chuckle]

22:05 Daniel: So maybe a slightly different perspective, I've worked with a lot of men who've been very patient, they've stopped the pursuing of sex, or taking that dominant role, and have allowed themselves, from maybe your podcasts or things that they've just learned naturally, to kinda back off and allow that space to be there. But then, something else that's happened is kind of what we're talking about, is the female has no desire to pursue desire. So months go by, six months will go by. In some cases, even years will go by

22:40 Ray: Or decades.

22:40 Daniel: where the husband is not bringing it up in a... Maybe occasionally, "Is it a good time tonight?" But then, the partner's just like, "No, I'm fine." Right? How... I realize that's a huge topic but, how would you go about addressing that? And what's the role... What does... Does the man just not pursue it anymore or what?

22:58 Jennifer: No, no. Definitely not. And I hope I can address this well 'cause I'm... I am, 100% I promise going to do a class on men's sexuality this year. [chuckle]

23:09 Daniel: Great.

23:09 Jennifer: Yeah, I keep promising this, but I actually am gonna do it so... [chuckle] Anyway. But I do hope I can talk quite a bit about this, because I think we've sort of socialized men either into the entitled position, or they... If they don't wanna be that, then they almost can't own desire at all. They see it as, "It's offensive that I want it." And, "This is just this hedonistic, bad part of me." And they can sometimes be partnered with a wife who kinda takes the moral high ground of not wanting sex, or whatever. And this, of course, gets very punctuated by... If porn has been in the picture at all, because you know, now you can kinda claim that you're the bad one because you want sex, and it can make it really hard to deal with the sexless-ness of the marriage.

23:54 Jennifer: So what I would be thinking about is, if you're the higher-desire person, whether male or female and your spouse does not desire you, I think the first question I would want to deal with is, "Why?" Okay? Why don't they desire me? Is it about me? Or is it about them? Or both? Is it that I'm not desirable? And that I'm functioning in a way in my life, or in the marriage, or in the sexual relationship, that it is actually good judgment that they don't desire me?

24:25 Jennifer: And/or is there something going on in them that they don't want to deal with, or grow up, or handle around sexuality? And that's obviously it seems like a basic question, but it's one that people surprisingly don't ask themselves very much. Because as I was talking to somebody a couple of nights ago, I was saying, "Why not go ahead and just ask your wife why she doesn't desire you?" And the reason for him is he doesn't want to hear the answer.

24:55 Ellen: I was gonna say, that's a very scary question to ask.

24:58 Jennifer: Yes, exactly. And in part because he already knows the answer, and he doesn't wanna deal with his own neediness, and the ways that he takes advantage in the marriage, and the things that are actually there that he would need to deal with to be freely desired. I mean, that's the bummer about marriage and intimacy, is that your partner gets to know you. And so, the things that... Your limitations become anti-aphrodisiacs often.

25:32 Jennifer: And so if you're gonna really grow in a marriage and a partnership, you have to really look at, "How do I engage or deal in a way that makes me undesirable?" Sometimes people are undesirable, and I'll just speak in the stereotypical way for a moment about, you know, some men are undesirable because they're too apologetic about their sexuality.

25:54 Jennifer: Because they sort of devalue it also. And they want their wife to manage the question of their desirability. Or manage the question of the legitimacy of their sexuality. And so, when they are too anxious, or apologetic, or looking for reinforcement around their sexuality, it feels more like mothering or caretaking on the part of their spouse, and that's very undesirable. And so, it's a hard question for men, and for all of us, I think in some ways, of, "How do I stand up for something I want, without being a bully?" Right? "And be contained enough without being wimpy and apologetic for my sexuality?"

26:40 Jennifer: "And how do I find that middle ground of kind of owning that my sexuality is legitimate and being clear about my desirability?" Without somehow taking advantage or being too reticent around it. And I think the answer, it's not an easy one to give in just a podcast really, because you kind of have to work with people around what's actually going on. But I think you have to really look honestly and with a clear eye towards the issue of your desirability.

27:11 Jennifer: And your own comfort with your sexuality and your sexual desires. Because if you can be clear that you are choosable and clear that what you want is a good thing, and doesn't harm your spouse or you, then you can stand up for it and deal with... Because it could be that your spouse doesn't want sex because she or he just doesn't wanna deal with their anxieties about sex. And maybe you've been pressured in the marriage to coddle those anxieties too much and too long. And it's creating resentment and low growth. Well, then it would actually be a desirable position, even though a challenging one, to stand up more for the sexual relationship moving forward, like in that one podcast I did.

27:55 Ray: Okay. Alright.

27:55 Jennifer: So are there other follow-up questions about that, or thoughts? If anybody has them, I'm happy to...

27:59 Ray: I'm guessing here, but the person who asked the question, 'cause I've heard you talk about it, I've heard, I think, Natasha Helfer-Parker talk about it, Nate Bagley talk about it. And it does kinda sound pretty one-sided, it's, "Husband, you gotta set your agenda aside, you have to make it all about her. Don't be a jerk."

28:23 Jennifer: Yeah.

28:23 Ray: My experience was... And I know a lot of other men have, we've had a similar experience, is it's not that we wanted, it was, we weren't gonna just run over our wife and get what we wanted.

28:34 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

28:35 Ray: You know? And we wanted to know we...

28:36 Jennifer: You maybe didn't have... You didn't have a participant maybe from the get-go, some people. Yes, definitely.

28:40 Ray: And so, if your partner shows up without any clue at all about what they want or what they need...

28:47 Jennifer: Sure. Oh, yeah.

28:48 Ray: How do you navigate that?

28:49 Jennifer: That's... Absolutely, that's... Right, it can't be collaborative if one person isn't... Not showing up, if they're pulling for a passive position. And many people are and you know, women have been taught not to kinda claim their sexuality because it's anti-feminine. You know? And so a lot of people believe they're gonna show up and the man is gonna teach them about their sexuality, and really, How does he know? [chuckle] I mean, right? For the very people.

29:16 Ray: Exactly.

29:16 Jennifer: And also, how do you co-create something, unless you're both participants in this process? So yeah, it's true. Yeah.

29:26 Leann: I think the frustrating thing is that, and I was one of them, oftentimes women don't, they don't realize they have desire, and they don't even feel like there's anything for... They're not the one with the problem, it's the husband wanting it and I guess pressuring. But when I'm in this intimacy group and it breaks my heart to hear from the husbands, 'cause the wives aren't in the group, they have no desire to want to get better, as far as the sexual relationship.

30:00 Leann: So that's what breaks my heart, is these husbands want to, but the wives just shut it down. They don't wanna have anything to do with helping themselves, or how... You know? And that's what I get frustrated in, is how do you help these husbands stand up for what... It would be beautiful, and right, and good in this relationship, but the wives just want nothing to do with it.

30:24 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, and I mean, there's... Well, there's the part of me that's compassionate towards the wives, and then the part that would challenge the wives. Okay? So the compassionate part is, "This is how it's all set up." Okay? So desire is bad, sexual desire, any kind of desire. I grew up, the whole Young Women's Manual is about your selflessness, and how that makes you desirable, and that's the frame. Right? So it is a passive frame.

30:49 Jennifer: And that sexuality is a challenge to your desirability. So you wanna shut it down. I have lots of clients who had sexual feelings and thoughts, they'd watch Love Boat and masturbate, and [chuckle] so on and on. And then, they'd feel so guilty and bad, that they'd repent and shut it down and shut it down. You know?

31:11 Leann: Yes.

31:11 Jennifer: And like, as an act of righteousness and sacrifice would basically shut this whole thing down. Then they show up on their wedding night, and they're supposed to be a participant? I mean, based on what? So, meaning we culturally create this. Now, that said, because I have compassion for that, both... And men too, because for the men that maybe are too eager or whatever, they've also... They come by it honestly, they've been sort of taught this idea that women's sexuality exists for their benefit, and for their delight, and so on. So people come by it honestly.

31:45 Jennifer: I think, where I would be challenging of women is when they just don't want... You know, I talk about hiding in the shadow. A lot of us don't wanna own what our desires are, or cultivate them, or figure them out. Because we don't want the exposure of it. We want the safety of having somebody else caretake us. We want the belief, or the fantasy that this makes us more righteous, or more noble, or whatever. And we wanna sell that idea, because what we really know is, we don't wanna sort of grow up and take an adult position sexually.

32:16 Jennifer: And so, I think, the challenge is once you start... I had a lot of women whose husbands signed them up for the workshop or something, and they are mad, because... And legitimately so, because they feel like, "Look, you just want me to go get fixed, so that you will get everything that you want." Well then, sometimes they show up there, and then they realize, "No, that's not the approach she's taking. And I have this whole aspect of myself, that I have shut down, that it's felt so self-betraying."

32:47 Jennifer: And then, they suddenly realize, "Wait, I want to develop this part of me, I want to be whole again, I don't want to always be living in reference to my husband's sexuality." So they really just start to grow into it, and they start to figure out, and sort of deprogram these parts of themselves. There was other people that don't want to develop this part of themselves, because they are afraid... They're in a marriage where they're afraid, if they start to develop any of it, it will just get hijacked and used for the benefit of the husband, because the dynamic of the marriage has to be addressed, still.

33:19 Jennifer: But then, there's other people who just, like I said, don't really wanna grow up and develop. And they can hold the other... Their spouse hostage. And they can get the moral high ground, because he's looked at porn, or whatever it is. And it's cruel. You know? [chuckle] It is absolutely cruel. And people can definitely do that, because they just don't want to grow up, don't want to be fair, don't want to take on the full responsibility of sharing a life with somebody. A lot of us get married with the idea that, "You're gonna manage my sense of self and make me happy."

33:54 Jennifer: Men and women do this. Very few of us, if we really thought about what we are committing to, would even get married. Because what we're really committing to is, "I'm willing to basically deal with my limitations, and grow myself up for your benefit, given that you're willing to actually hook yourself to me. And I'm willing to really be a good friend to you, and do all the growth that that's gonna require of me." I mean, that's what you ultimately agree to, if you're gonna be happily married.

34:22 Ellen: So you're speaking a lot of collaboration. A collaboration alliance.

34:25 Jennifer: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

34:28 Ellen: Now, I understand you've spoken in the past of collaboration alliance versus collusive alliance?

34:33 Jennifer: Yeah, a collaborative alliance versus a collusive one, yes.

34:36 Ellen: What's your difference in that? It being a unilateral? Can you speak a little bit more of that?

34:41 Jennifer: Well, a collaborative alliance is, I think, the easiest way to say it. And I'm sure if David Schnarch were here, he would say it much more thoroughly. But basically, the idea that David Schnarch is talking about, is that a collaborative alliance is you are willing to do your part in a partnership towards a shared aim. Being good parents, be creating a good marriage in which two people thrive, creating a good sexual relationship in which two people thrive, that would be collaborative. And you do your part, whether or not your spouse is doing their part. You don't use the fact that your spouse may be having a bad day, and not doing their part, to get yourself off the hook around your part.

35:18 Ellen: Definitely.

35:19 Jennifer: That you're willing to stand up, and be a grown-up, and deal with things, even if your spouse is having a bad day. A collusive alliance is basically, where the worst in your spouse, and your worst in you... And everybody's in some version of a collusive alliance with their spouse. The happier people have less of one. Okay? [chuckle]

35:37 Jennifer: But a collusive alliance is the worst in you, hooks into the worst in me, and it justifies the worst in each of us. We use the worst in each other to justify the worst in ourselves. So it's like, you know people say to me all the time in therapy, "I wouldn't be such a jerk if he weren't such a... What a... " You know, like meaning... This is collusive alliance, that I don't have to deal with my sexuality because you're a jerk.

36:03 Jennifer: And so I use the fact that you're a jerk to keep justifying that I don't deal with my sexuality. But you can get really mean, and hostile, and nasty, 'cause you know I won't develop this part of myself. Right? So that's the way it dips... Reinforces. And I'm constantly in therapy being like, "Stop dealing with your spouse, deal with yourself. It's the only way this will move forward." I'm always saying that.

36:23 Ellen: Look in the mirror. [chuckle]

36:25 Jennifer: Exactly, get the beam out of your own eye. [laughter]

36:28 Daniel: Ellen or Ray, there is, I think, a few questions or comments in the comments section. So you don't have to do it at this moment, but when you have a second, follow up with that.

36:37 Ray: if you ever have a script for how to address that with your kids. 'Cause that's the, kind of the bell. Right?

36:39 Jennifer: Well, when there are kids who are younger, what... 36:40 Ray: "'Cause you started it." "Well, you started it."

36:42 Jennifer: Well yeah, yeah, when my kids were younger, and this was a borrow, I think, from the IRIS book. But basically, they would have to sit on the couch, and they couldn't get off until they each owned what their role was in the problem. So...

36:53 Ray: Yes.

36:55 Jennifer: Yeah, that's one version of it, yeah. Another version is, like, put you both in the same boat, and until you can come up with the solution, neither one gets the positive thing. So you have to collaborate to get the positive thing. Right.

37:08 Ray: Right. Okay.

37:09 Ellen: So kind of back to a topic that we had been discussing about the woman really stepping into the role of being collaborative, and in equal partnership in the relationship. We have a comment in the chat box saying, "How do we change the church culture problems of the unclear functioning of women?"

37:31 Nicole: Under-functioning.

37:31 Jennifer: Meaning that... Oh, under-functioning.

37:32 Ray: Under-functioning.

37:32 Jennifer: There, under-functioning.

37:33 Ellen: Oh, under-functioning...

37:33 Jennifer: Yeah, there we go.

37:34 Ellen: That is why. [chuckle]

37:34 Jennifer: Yeah, good.

37:35 Jennifer: So how do we change that culture? I mean, it's the women themselves often that are doing the teaching. To basically teach better and teach differently. I mean that like, you know, we can't necessarily go in and change or control what is in the curriculum, but we can change how we each talk to women and we can change what we share in Relief Society and so on, what we... So that's about the best we have. You can do podcasts. [chuckle]

38:05 Ellen: You can say really, it's really us, we can...

38:07 Jennifer: It's us.

38:08 Ellen: Change us, and us will change our relationships with others, and our others or relationships with others will change the others we interact with, and it will expand.

38:17 Jennifer: Yeah, absolutely, and I just tend... A lot of times we think the church is the leadership, and then...

38:23 Ellen: It comes down to that too, yeah.

38:24 Jennifer: We are the church. You have to think of it that way, in my opinion, and you just roll up your sleeves and have as much impact as you can, because I think the more you role model strength like that, the more you give people permission to relate to themselves, or to women in general, differently.

38:43 Ellen: So the next one is a really interesting one, it says, "How is it best to navigate having sex during marriage struggles?" They go on to say, "When she's rude, or attacks the kids, or criticizes, or makes fun of me in front of the kids, I'm so repulsed, I don't feel like being around her at all. But then, eventually, within a few days or less, we both get the biological urge and want to enjoy each other, so we do."

39:07 Ellen: "And it's great, and we feel closer and better afterwards, but I worry she thinks everything is okay or resolved because we're having sex. When it's not. Perhaps that's how she feels as well. We are starting therapy... " Or, "We started therapy a few months ago, and that's helpful, though expensive. A chance to talk through things. However, in general, when we get a rare chance to be alone and talk away from the kids, we'd mostly rather have sex than talk about our problems."

39:33 Jennifer: Okay, well, that's the problem.

39:34 Ellen: "Is that a good approach?" [chuckle]

39:36 Jennifer: Wrong, no.

39:36 Ellen: "Give me advice in that respect, what we do when our problems are all so present?"

39:41 Jennifer: Well, it doesn't have to be one or the other, because you could say, "I really wanna have sex with you, but I think the way you talked to the kids today was horrible." Okay? And you don't have to necessarily put them right next to each other. But I wouldn't say one precludes the other necessarily. You can say, "I like you, you matter to me. I like having sex with you and I'm really concerned about how we're parenting the kids, and specifically how you are harsh with them, and then I come in and I coddle them." Or whatever it is. I don't think it has to... I think what maybe the person's asking is, "If I address this, it may very well kill... "

40:17 Ellen: I would say, absolutely yes.

40:18 Jennifer: "Our ability to have sex." Right? But then, I would say, if that's really true, if you can't deal with your problems and have sex at the same time, then you probably shouldn't be having sex. Because if dealing honestly with what's going on in the marriage means that you're gonna go through a period of time in which desire gets challenged, well I personally think you have a deeper responsibility to the well-being of the marriage, and your role as parents, than to whether or not you have the... How to say it? The placating experience of having sex. So I'm not here to say that necessarily you'll get one or the other, but if you know that you get one or the other, then I think you have to be really careful about how you're relating to sex, 'cause it has its costs.

41:10 Ellen: So if we go back to the original... Oh, go ahead.

41:12 Jennifer: Okay. No, I was just saying it has its cost if you keep kicking... You know, I talk in my marriage course about over-reactors, people that are freaking out all the time. But then there's also people that are under-reactors or they don't deal with problems as they arise. That's as toxic to a marriage. You then have people that look like they're doing great because they have sex or they are low-conflict, but a huge storm is brewing, and oftentimes when those marriages rupture, they rupture permanently. Because they have no ability to... They have no ability to kinda handle the problems, because they have no practice in it. And so, under-reacting to your troubles is really setting yourself up.

41:57 Ellen: Yeah, it's an avoidance technique.

42:00 Jennifer: Yeah.

42:00 Ellen: That's basically what they're doing.

42:01 Jennifer: And you know, of course, the problems grow. They don't go away, they grow, they start getting out of your control when you don't deal with them.

42:10 Ellen: And they're certainly recognizing that, like they've said that they don't like that they're doing this, that they're concerned about this, they've started going to therapy, they recognize that's a very expensive way [chuckle] to talk. And... But they are...

42:28 Jennifer: Good luck if you're gonna go into... [chuckle]

42:30 Ellen: But they also recognize that they're physically attracted, and they have, as they say, the biological urge, and they want to pursue that as well. And so I see that as a good thing, as well, that they still have that, despite this... [overlapping conversation]

42:45 Jennifer: Yeah, well, and it doesn't mean that you can't have sex for sure, 'cause there's lots of couples that are dealing with their troubles, and they're still having sex.

42:52 Ellen: Yeah.

42:53 Jennifer: It's just another way of being together and sort of, you know, I think sometimes we have the idea that everything must be good in the relationship, and then sex is legitimized. It's just kind of a Mormon cultural idea we have. I don't see it that way, because I think a good sexual relationship can give you some of the sustenance to kinda keep dealing with the challenges. Part of why I've worked out things with my husband is 'cause I'm attracted to him. [chuckle] Okay?

43:20 Jennifer: And I want a good sexual relationship, but I want, you know... And so, that desire pushes you through the troubles. It gives you the energy to deal with the hard things. So I wouldn't necessarily say it should... You shouldn't be having sex, I would say if you're using it to get away from your troubles, then it's a problem.

43:39 Ellen: But using it for motivation to work through this?

43:43 Jennifer: Sure, absolutely. Now, I think what some people are afraid of is if they talk about hard things, then their spouse won't wanna have sex with them. So it's a kind of a kind of... People can be complicit in not dealing with things, the sad issue. But you certainly can use it as a resource, 100%.

43:56 Ellen: So their general question is, "How best to navigate having sex during marriage struggles?" It sounds like you're saying, of course, don't cut it out, [chuckle] altogether.

44:06 Jennifer: Yeah.

44:06 Ellen: So... But don't use it as a way to avoid having those conversations.

44:11 Jennifer: Exactly. Exactly.

44:12 Ellen: Because there may be some fear around having those conversations, that it will reduce the amount of sex that you're having, but using the desire for each other as a motivation to work through those troubles, because you wanna get close together. Is that right?

44:27 Jennifer: Yes. Yeah, and I would say what often happens for couples is when they're right in the heat of the struggle, sometimes their desire goes down, but as they start to work things out, the sex gets way better. You know? It's like that, you feel gratitude, you see your partner as somebody who's willing to deal with things, you feel more aware of your separateness as a couple and through some of the struggle, and so the sex is more positive. So I wouldn't see it as one or the other, but I think if you want good sex, you want your relationship to keep growing and thriving, and that means dealing with hard things.

45:03 Ellen: Yeah, I can imagine that coming through difficulties and then coming to this place of convergence, where you're just together on something and you've almost... You've repaired something together.

45:15 Jennifer: Absolutely.

45:15 Ellen: It would make it even more powerful and even more meaningful.

45:20 Jennifer: Absolutely. Absolutely. So yeah, I think that's how couples continue to create novelty. In a long-term partnership, there's only so much novelty you can generate. And I'm all for novelty, but it's still the same person, it's [chuckle] the same room, or whatever. 45:39 Ellen: That's so true. [laughter]

45:40 Jennifer: So you know, but I mean...

45:42 Ellen: I worry about that.

45:44 Jennifer: Yeah, sure. And I'm all for novelty. There's a lot of fun things you can do to create novelty, but I think what's at the core of a good intimate marriage is a growing marriage. It's a marriage that's growing, and you don't take the other person for granted. You recognize that they will challenge things in themselves, they'll deal with things honestly, you keep sort of becoming aware over and over again, that this is a separate person from you, who owes you nothing, but that will continue to grow and do better for your benefit and their own benefit, and that drives respect and desire. And so...

46:18 Ellen: I think that is a really key point, that I'll personally draw out, is they owe you nothing.

46:25 Jennifer: That's right.

46:26 Ellen: That's hard to swallow.

46:28 Jennifer: Yeah, I know.

46:29 Ellen: Because there's this sense of, "I've done this for you, you do this for me." Give-take. "You owe me" kind of idea...

46:36 Jennifer: Exactly.

46:36 Ellen: But to get away from that...

46:38 Jennifer: Yes.

46:39 Ellen: Feeling. That's hard. [laughter]

46:41 Jennifer: It's hard and it's the only way to do marriage, in my opinion.

46:45 Ellen: That's novel. [chuckle]

46:45 Jennifer: To do it from a passionate position, because as soon as you get it into, "I need this, you're obligated, you owe me." Right?

48:54 Ellen: Or even just the marriage contract idea of, "We... You married me, for good and for bad. This is bad, you are in it with me." This idea of, "You owe this for me, we're working on this." Making sure that you're not using that as a form of manipulation.

47:10 Jennifer: Yes.

47:10 Ellen: But a motivation to work together.

47:11 Jennifer: Yeah, which is not about precluding you from running your life, because you can say, "Look, here are the terms of my participation in this marriage, and if you don't wanna live by those terms, I can choose to exit." Okay? I know that's hard when you have a mortgage and kids, and all that, but you can define the terms of your participation, you can control your own choices. But I think as soon as we are in the idea that, "You owe me."

47:40 Jennifer: As a way to pressure and to... As a way to be in a marriage, you will kill desire. When it's more like, "Wow, this person chooses me day, after day, after day. That's amazing. This person has offered goodness to my life, and they don't have to. And they do. And that they do, it's a miracle actually." When you live in that frame, which is the only honest way to live in the world, to be honest. Who's owed anything? There's children starving in Africa, do you think that's what... They're getting what they deserve? You know what I mean?

48:14 Jennifer: When you get good things it's good fortune. It's by grace, it's by... And so if you don't live in a gratitude-based frame, you're gonna have a hard time living with joy. And you have to live it, I think you have to live in that frame in marriage. Now again, I know people get like, "Wait a minute. Well, do you just mean you have to take whatever you get? The person's having affairs, you can't... "

48:34 Jennifer: No, I'm not saying you can't decide if somebody is bringing too little good if somebody is trying to take advantage of that commitment you've made. That you may then have to make other choices because living with them is not good for you. Right? Continuing to struggle with them is not good for you. But the idea that... But that's different than living in marriage from a frame of demand. And a lot of people want the safety of doing that.

49:04 Ellen: And I think there's this importance of, again as you've mentioned, this independence of self. You've mentioned in your other podcasts sometimes you do have to bring the conversation to the point of, "I'm willing to step away from this marriage."

49:19 Jennifer: Absolutely.

49:19 Ellen: If that's the case, "Because this is not good for either of us." And that's a very scary place to come to.

49:25 Jennifer: Oh yeah. But it's usually where people grow the most. It's when they realize, "I can't make this marriage happen." That for me is when people often make their biggest strides in their development, is when they stop trying to control whether or not their proud spouse chooses them, whether or not the marriage stays together. They're no longer controlling that, they're only controlling who they are, in the marriage.

49:48 Jennifer: When people really take that developmental step, that's when marriages really... Well, sometimes they fall apart at that point, because the other person won't step up. Or they really, really take a massive step forward. Because people are really operating, not from trying to obligate and control, but really a framing of choosing, and controlling themselves, and who they are in the marriage.

50:09 Ellen: Maybe I'm making a leap here but, Would you say that that's more a high-desire partner position to be in than a low-desire? To kind of...

50:19 Jennifer: To put the question of the marriage on the line, you're saying?

50:22 Ellen: Yeah, yeah.

50:25 Jennifer: Well, it depends on, "Why?"

50:25 Ellen: I don't know...

50:25 Jennifer: It would depend on "Why?" If somebody is in a marriage where their spouse just won't develop or deal with their sexuality, yes.

50:32 Ellen: That's where I'm... Yeah, that's where I'm looking. Right.

50:34 Jennifer: If somebody is in a low-desire position because their spouse is narcissistic, for example, or won't deal with the ways that they take too much in the marriage, and they keep trying to stand up to get that person to deal with who they are, because they do want a good sexual relationship, they just don't want sex in the current form. Okay? They're low-desire because of good judgment. Well, then they may be the one who's saying, "Look, I want good sex too, I just don't want what you're offering. It's all about you." And so, they may be the ones putting on... You know, calling it quits.

51:08 Ellen: Interesting.

51:10 Ray: I think, whenever the notion of, "Is sex a good enough reason to leave the marriage" comes up, there are a lot of people who are really quick to jump on that because they're afraid that if we normalize that, that's gonna be everybody's first choice. "I don't get what I want, I'm out."

51:29 Jennifer: Yeah, yeah.

51:30 Ray: And in my experience, it's really the opposite. It's when you're willing to actually walk away from... It takes a lot to be willing to walk away from what you have.

51:40 Jennifer: Absolutely.

51:40 Ray: I don't know that it's... That's anybody's first choice.

51:44 Jennifer: Well, and I think a lot of the time when people are saying, "Is sex enough reason?" We have it in the hedonistic frame, rather than if sex really isn't happening in a marriage, there's something bad going on. [chuckle] Okay? You know what I mean? Like, I mean...

51:58 Daniel: Yeah, it's not the sex. [chuckle]

52:00 Jennifer: Yeah, it's not the sex. Exactly, it's not the sex.

52:02 Daniel: Sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but...

52:04 Jennifer: No, but then you're right. The sex is an indicator of something much more profoundly important going on. And so, the sex is the canary in the coal mine.

52:14 Ellen: And I think that actually hits the point of the original question, the debate around sex not being neediness, or isn't sexy, but also wanting to talk about the importance of it.

52:25 Jennifer: Yeah.

52:27 Ellen: I think it goes back to that. I know that you've said it's not necessarily about the sex, but... It's the canary but, What killed the canary? [chuckle]

52:35 Jennifer: You know, exactly. It's exactly right. Why is the canary dead? Okay? Can we look at that? [laughter]

52:44 Jennifer: Exactly. Is there just too much noxious gas that the canary can't breathe? Or is the canary faking dead so that it doesn't have to, you know... [overlapping conversation]

52:54 Ellen: It's looking away. [laughter]

52:58 Jennifer: Yeah.

52:59 Ellen: It has been a pleasure chatting with you, and being able to listen more. Our focus to three podcasts and collect people's questions and really just discuss with you. So I wanted to give you a couple minutes to close up, any closing thoughts you had as far as the discussions that we've had today. If there's any kind of ending thoughts you'd like to share, and then give you that au revoir and [chuckle] the opportunity to sign off, and...

53:29 Jennifer: Sure.

53:29 Ellen: Really one day invite you to come back, we'd love to have a follow-up at some point, and do this again.

53:35 Jennifer: Sure.

53:35 Ellen: But the time is yours.

53:37 Jennifer: Well, I guess maybe I would just say I respect in everybody that's here, the pursuit of sorting through these hard things, like marriage and intimate relationships are not easy. To achieve the beauty that relationships are capable of takes a lot of courage. Courage to deal honestly with ourselves, to deal honestly with our spouse, to face hard things. Happy marriages are not for sissies. Okay? [laughter]

54:11 Daniel: My wife just wanted... Heard what you said and wants to put it on a t-shirt. Do we need to get a waiver or something? "Happy marriages aren't for sissies." [chuckle]

54:19 Jennifer: Aren't for sissies. Yeah, you could do that, just stick my name on it and my website... [laughter]

54:25 Daniel: You got it.

54:28 Jennifer: So yeah. So I respect it, I always respect it because I think it's the best in humans when people are willing to kind of face those hard things. And when I watch people go through it, it's hard. But it's really where all the beauty lies. So, there's divinity in all that process, even though it can feel like you're in hell sometimes.

54:53 Ellen: Well said.

54:54 Well, Jennifer thank you so much for your time.

54:57 Jennifer: You're welcome.

54:58 Ellen: Have a wonderful evening, and keep warm out there. [chuckle]

55:02 Jennifer: Okay, thanks everybody. Bye.

55:03 Ray: Thank you.

55:04 Ellen: Bye-bye.

[music]

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Daniel Burgess Daniel Burgess

Part 2-2 | How Desiring to Understand My Husband’s Struggle Led to Healthy Dialogue and Healing and Discovering My Own Sexuality

Part 2-2: How Desiring to Understand My Husband’s Struggle Led to Healthy Dialogue and Healing and Discovering My Own Sexuality

Leanne is a wife of 31 years. She has 2 children who are both married. She is the grandmother of one. She is a retired preschool teacher of 17 years. She is enjoying her season of time with her husband as an empty nester.

 **Note from Leanne, please read prior to listening: I think there might be some confusion in our story for some people. Some people I think believe that we started to view pornography together as a couple. That is not what happened at all. That day that I sat down with him and opened my heart to understand what was driving him to look was the last day that he viewed it. So I just want to clarify that.

When my husband and I started the journey of turning towards each other in all of the aspects of our lives and began to create a truly intimate marriage, the “need” for my husband to turn to porn left him. And my “need” to constantly check up on him left me. And I was healed from being stuck in betrayal trauma. The connection that we made in turning towards one another to proactively create what we really wanted for our marriage was the answer to porn not being an issue for either of us from that point forward. Turning towards each other healed both of us.**

[music]

0:00:04 VO: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel in this episode of Improving Intimacy.

0:00:23 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. I'm really excited today. We get to have Leanne back on with us. We get to explore some of the topic set we addressed in the previous podcast in a little bit more depth and I'm excited and thankful that you Leanne are willing to come back on and explore these topics further with us. There is a lot of excitement with people who listen to your podcast and we're just craving more and this is a very private and very vulnerable experience for you, so I really appreciate you coming on and being willing to explore some of these topics in depth. There's clearly a need and it's moved a lot of people to hear your story. So, let's turn it over to you. Where do you wanna start? What do you feel from the people who've listened to your podcast and the comments that have been made? Where do you feel it's important to start?

0:01:19 Leanne: Well, first off, thank you for having me back. I'm excited to be back on here and like you say, to go over more in-depth of my journey and how I got to where I am today, but basically I just wanna start off with my struggles, like what my struggles were with my sexuality and what was holding me back for years and years. I struggled for probably... We were married for 31 years and I probably struggled for 25 of those years, overcoming some hurdles and issues that I had in order to be able to step into my sexuality. So, basically, that's just what I wanna share with everyone today is how I overcame. What those struggles were and how I worked through them, how I overcame them, how I was able to think differently. I think so often when we try to improve our sexuality, like we come to it from... Sex, like we try to... What sex acts can improve my sexuality, what things can I be doing in the bedroom to make me like it more. And I think too often we're just chasing after sex acts when really, especially for women, our biggest sex organ truly is our brain.

0:02:42 Leanne: And one of the things I learned... Just what I've heard about, I haven't read any of her books, Emily Nagoski. I've never read any of her books but I've heard people explain about her brakes and accelerators and I realized that for years and years as... 'Cause I wanted to want sex, I wanted to like sex. I did have that desire, all through the years of my marriage, I just could not figure out how to get there. And so, I would try different things over the years but what I realized with brakes and accelerators was even though I was trying to push on the gas and go forward and figure it out, I was standing on the brakes. I had so many issues piled up that I just didn't have my foot on the brake, I was standing hard on the brake. And so that was preventing me to make any forward movement at all in the area of intimacy, does that make sense?

0:03:38 Daniel: It does and for those who aren't familiar with Emily's book it's "Come as You Are", great book, very very insightful, gets into exactly what you're talking about, the science and the process our brains go through in experiencing sexual arousal. Tell us a little bit more though. What do you mean you're standing on the brake? What did that look like for you? What were you doing or not doing?

0:04:01 Leanne: For me, standing on the brakes, I guess, meant for me just any time I would try to make any forward progress in my marriage. One of the issues that I want... I'll talk. Some of these issues that were holding me back, they would just come forward to the surface and then I would be slamming on that brake again. And so, yeah, I guess going forward, talking here, we'll just start talking about some of those things that kept me with my foot on the brake.

0:04:27 Daniel: Yeah, let's start by that.

0:04:29 Leanne: Okay, so first off, when I finally decided that I really wanted to start working on my sexuality, one day I came across a little meme on Facebook and it broke down the word intimacy and I'm sure people have seen this before, but it broke it down to me saying, "Into me see". And I break it down to "into me you see." And what that means to me is, for me, the goal in marriage is to have a desire to know your partner on a very deep level and then to also allow your partner to know you on that very deep level. And for me that means knowing your partner's heart, their mind, their spirit, their body, and then letting them also know your heart, your mind, your spirit, your body. And so I really wanted that, that was the goal of me being able to work on my sexuality, was I wanted all of that, I wanted all that intimacy had to offer, and so that was the driving force that moved me forward to really working on my sexuality. But first, the first thing I think that I had to figure out was in order to be intimate on a sexual level, and to have true intimacy in a marriage, you really need to work on all the levels of intimacy in your marriage, and that means working on the psychological intimacy in your marriage which means honesty, loyalty, trust and commitment. I feel like that is the foundation to your marriage, is those four things; honesty, loyalty, trust and commitment.

0:06:09 Leanne: And then the other areas are verbal, emotional, intellectual, spiritual, physical, and then I've also added recreational. But in order to really be able to work on that physical level, the other levels had to also be being worked on. It's not just enough to say, "I want a wonderful intimate life, intimate sexual life." I feel like it was important in my marriage to work on all the levels. And once my husband and I started to work on all those levels of intimacy within our marriage, then it was easier to work on the physical intimacy part. I think so often we hear that women are more emotional and for me that's definitely true. And so I had to feel like things were being worked on outside of the bedroom in order for me to also be working on things inside of the bedroom.

0:06:57 Daniel: Before we get there and maybe you're gonna address this, but what did you have to do yourself? In the previous podcast and online you've talked a lot about how you have to face your own trauma, you have to face your own hold-ups around this before you can engage and improve your relationship together. That's a very difficult place for people who especially have experienced trauma and mental health issues around intimacy. How did you get there? What did you do to... We already discovered in the previous podcast that you do have a level of insight that I think is a little higher than most people, but regardless, what did you do to recognize, "Okay, I need to address this, this is my issue that I need to overcome." And what steps did you take?

0:07:50 Leanne: I honestly think the thing that really hit me the hardest when I started to really face myself was one day I was... It was the very, very first podcast that I listened to from Jennifer Finlayson-Fife, and I can't even remember where... I know it was some LDS site, like LDS Living or something and I've tried to find it and I haven't been able to just find it since, but she talks in that podcast about... We really need to bring our very best self to our partners every day. Like, we need to take a good long look at ourselves and ask ourselves, would we wanna be married to ourselves? "Would I wanna be married to someone like me?" And when I really started to look hard at myself and answer that question, the answer was no. I would not wanna be married to me, I was not nice because of some of the anxieties that I faced, I gave myself permission to act badly towards my husband either in coming from a place of I'm trying to protect myself or then also coming through a place of excusing my anxieties and saying, "I can't help it. This is just how I soothe myself, it's how I soothe my anxieties, is to control everything that's around me."

0:09:09 Leanne: And so, it really hit me hard when I listened to that podcast when she said, "We, we need to bring our best self to our spouse, every day." And I feel like my husband, for the most part, did bring his best self to me every day. He is so kind and very caring and very patient. And I realized that I wasn't giving the same.

0:09:32 Daniel: Was there a point, and maybe I'm making some assumptions here, that you viewed him as the broken one with the issues around pornography and maybe his behavior in the bedroom? Did you view him as the broken one and then have this epiphany like, "Oh, my goodness. I'm the one who's struggling here."

0:09:49 Leanne: It doesn't really played a role, it played a role in the bedroom, it played a role just because I had my foot so hard on the brakes that I... "He's just using my body because of what he's seen."

0:10:03 Daniel: Yes, exactly, thank you for clarifying. And that's what I was alluding to.

0:10:07 Leanne: Yeah, so some of the struggles within the actual sexual realm of things, I could blame some of them on him but I also knew what was going on in my own head, surrounding some of the struggles that I had, and so then I just realized I needed to work on 'em.

0:10:32 Daniel: Yeah, again, so you had that level of insight where you were able to acknowledge, and I think for the most part, most people are like that. Specifically women. I think there is that level, "Okay, I know there's an issue here with me too, but the pain and the difficulties in the relationship make it difficult to focus on that inward self because you see other problems in the relationship that you want to address or think are bigger and contributing to that, in this case maybe the pornography, it's tempting to say, "My husband's behavior is what's triggering me and until he fixes it, I can't fix myself." But you're seeing that or at least at this point you're saying, "No, I gotta address myself too."

0:11:17 Leanne: Mm-hmm. 'Cause I knew it was part of it, but I knew it was definitely not all of it, so I finally had to just face myself, "I need to figure this out." So then some of the things that I struggled with, like the first one being "the good girl syndrome" and I talked about that the other day. I think it's so hard, and not in just LDS relationships, but also I've heard lately more just in Christian relationships, in religions that really stifle sexuality or have such a strong belief around waiting 'til you're married. So, we get this message growing up that it's a bad thing like, "We don't do this, it's bad." And then all of a sudden when you're married, it's okay, it's fine now. It's really, really hard to change gears for a lot of women, and not just women, but for some men too, it's really hard to all of a sudden think it's okay. So, I had to get over that good girl syndrome and just really come to embrace the fact that I was created to be a sexual being as well as a emotional, and intellectual, and spiritual being, I was also created to be a sexual being.

0:12:28 Leanne: And, I think, so often growing up and nobody talking to us when we're teenagers of how to embrace our sexuality we try to repress it. And the other thing I struggled with and I talked about this on the last podcast, was I struggled to be sexual and spiritual within the same body, that didn't make sense to me of how to marry the two. And so the danger is in that though was I was completely shutting down my sexuality because I thought that my spiritual self should learn how to control the physical self. And by doing that it's like you're cutting off your arm, like when you shut down, you're shutting down a part of who you are and it's...

0:13:12 Daniel: Let me pause you right there for a second 'cause that's I think an important statement there, and I wanna make sure that the listeners understand what you just said. Tell us a little bit more about what it means, or at least what your paradigm was at the time that you're thinking the spiritual self should, would you say control my sexual behavior or my sexual desire, and you couldn't marry 'em together, what were you... Tell us a little bit more about what that meant to you at the time?

0:13:39 Leanne: I feel like it meant that if I... We hear that about our carnal selves and that we need to learn, control our carnal selves, and the natural man is an enemy to God. And so I think I was equating that my sexual part of myself was carnal, it was dirty, it was naughty, it was wanting things that it shouldn't want, and so...

0:14:06 Daniel: And that's why you were shutting it down, is...

0:14:09 Leanne: Mm-hmm.

0:14:10 Daniel: The experience you're having spiritually, so what was that? Did you feel like it was the spirit telling that this was inappropriate, that this was dirty, this shouldn't be pursued? And if you did, how do you view that insight now? Do you still look at that and say, "Yes, that was a spirit telling me that?" Or how do you reconcile that now?

0:14:31 Leanne: No, I don't believe that was the spirit at all. I think that was fear, I think it was fear, I think it was guilt, it was shame, it was those. It was those feelings. They were very negative and I don't think that's how the spirit works.

0:14:45 Daniel: Yeah, and it's interesting though, because this is not the first time I've heard this. And I've had many, many people come in and say, "This isn't right, the spirit's telling me it isn't." But typically, and who am I? I can't tell somebody that they're not feeling the Spirit, but this is usually what I'm discovering, is it's fear. How would you guide people who are trying to sort that out to distinguish between the Spirit and the fear or guilt that they're feeling around it, and why are they confusing the two? Kind of a bunch of questions there, but I guess, how would somebody distinguish that? What did you do to identify that really wasn't the spirit, that was actually fear and guilt?

0:15:33 Leanne: When I finally decided that I was gonna work on my sexuality and really open up my perceptions, and my thinking around it, and just become more open in my thinking, very quickly when I started to work on things with my husband there was a difference. Our relationship just grew so quickly, whereas before there was just... It was a hindrance to our relationship, progress was not being made. The guilt was there that I should not feel that way towards my husband, it's a beautiful thing and if there's guilt for even trying to become closer, I mean that's not right. That's not what our heavenly father wants for us, He wants us to be close, very, very close in that relationship. And so, once I just decided, "I'm not gonna feel these feelings of guilt anymore. I'm not gonna allow them into my mind," and started to work on things with my husband, very, very quickly things moved along at a really beautiful pace, really beautiful, wonderful things were happening within my marriage.

0:16:51 Daniel: Are you willing or comfortable with sharing any details, experiences around that?

0:16:58 Leanne: Well one thing, and I kinda have details interwoven when I talk about some of my struggles. So there's the one struggle that I had of giving and receiving. Dr. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife talks about this a lot. Truly being able to receive from your partner and you truly being able to give to your partner. I think, so often as women, we have a hard time receiving because we're always on the giving and the serving end of the doing and the taking care of kids, we have a really hard time receiving sometimes. And so the very first time that I had really learned how to calm my anxieties down in the bedroom, and there was one particular time when we were being intimate, and I for the first time ever I felt on a very deep level of how much my husband was giving to me, like giving his whole self to me, his heart, his spirit, his mind, his body, and I just had tears just streaming down my face because I felt like his goodness was pouring into me, and afterwards I was like, "I felt that. I felt your generosity towards me. I felt your love and your goodness," and he said, "I've been trying to love you that way for 27 years but you shut me down."

0:18:25 Leanne: I was just stuck in a place of, my mind was just so closed because of the guilt that I couldn't even open up to begin to accept what he was trying to offer me through his sexuality.

0:18:36 Daniel: What an amazing experience. He was able to tell you that in those words is, "You're were shutting me down?"

0:18:42 Leanne: Mm-hmm. Yup.

0:18:43 Daniel: It sounds like maybe you were ready and a place to hear that. I don't know, if I recommend every husband say that to their to their spouse, but...

0:18:52 Leanne: I definitely, yes, I definitely was in a place to hear that.

0:18:55 Daniel: That's wonderful, and you were recognizing how much love he was giving to you. So it sounds like you were ready to hear that. What a wonderful experience.

0:19:02 Leanne: And the other thing on that other end, so then the giving part, I think, that something that can become problematic and it was for me, is we...

0:19:13 Leanne: Dr. Jennifer, she talks about this and she got this idea from David Schnarch. And it's where we want to belong to ourselves, like the desire to belong to ourselves is even stronger than the desire to receive sexual pleasure. And so, if we as women or anybody if you don't step into your sexuality and really embrace it and own it and want to share it with another person, then you're constantly gonna be feeling like your partner is taking it from you, 'cause you're not freely giving it and so you're gonna... Over time, I became very resentful because I felt like my husband was constantly taking from me and when I really stepped into my sexuality and had the strong desire to share it with my husband, it made all the difference in the world for me, I never feel like he's taking from me anymore 'cause I've owned it, I've owned that sexuality, it is mine, and it's mine to share. So those feelings completely went away. And so the resentful feelings went away, all that went away because my sexuality now belongs to me.

0:20:17 Daniel: If you don't mind, I wanna emphasize that point that is so, so critical in the process. And I love how you describe it when you're rejecting your spouse, you're setting him up for failure and you're gonna always feel like he's taking something away from you or burdening you. And I see that dynamic over and over and over again, where the spouse, the wife in this case, will set certain expectations, until those expectations are met there's no physical intimacy, whatever those expectations may be, and it sets the partner up for failure because you can't ever really live up to those expectations. Whatever they be, you may be able to do it, but then it becomes a checklist and it's anything but intimate. And that creates that cycle downward that spiral downward because, so well said, because it feels like now it becomes this exchange of tasks and a burden, it does not create the intimacy. So that is so hard to break, but then what's reinforcing it is we're thinking, "Well, we're having this negative experience in our sexual dynamic relationship because he isn't doing his part." It becomes very deflective, and so being able to look at this and say, "Open up to it." And then it's connecting, it's beautiful.

0:21:39 Daniel: And then you have these experiences. Now, not everybody's gonna have this, there's... In fact, I'm very curious, I would love to know at least your perspective what your husband was going through? He's been... He was giving and giving and giving for 27 years. That's endurance in... I would have to say, I know very few men who are able to maintain that level of giving for so long without becoming resentful, lost in their own sexuality. What do you think, if your husband wouldn't mind you sharing, what he was able to do to embrace that and continue patiently giving? And I'm not assuming he never had an issue of maybe resentment or hurt feelings. We're human beings, right? What do you think allowed him to continue to be loving and patient over almost three decades?

0:22:33 Leanne: It makes me a little weepy. He just had a very, very strong love for me. So it sounds like cheesy in a way to be like, "It's because he loves me, that's why he was able to endure it all." But that really was it, he was so in love with me, and that's not to say that there weren't hard times, there were times when things were rough and he would weep and he would say, "You hurt me deeply, you're not nice, and you hurt me deeply." But it was because he loved me so immensely that he endured it, and then also when he prayed to know whether he should marry me or not the answer that he got was yes and take care of her. And he understood how broken I was from the trauma that I received as a child and a teenager. He understood that he knew how broken I was and I think also he knew I was trying. I did want to want it and I expressed that often. It's not that I was the type of person that I was like, "I hate it, don't talk to me about it. I don't want anything to do with it." I wasn't that type of a person, I was the type of person that I would longing to want it, I just didn't know how to get there. And so he was very patient with me all those years and he just loved me through it and felt like he made that promise to my father that he would take care of me.

0:24:07 Daniel: What would you say to men who... I think there's a lot of men who have the level of love that your husband has for you, but the years have taken such a toll on them in their relationship and they're experiencing this, their wife not wanting you can't even bring up sex anymore, you can't talk about it. It's become very isolating even to suggest therapy or some sort of intervention around sex is just yet another manipulation or selfish desire to have more sex. What are your thoughts around encouraging those husbands to support their wives who are disconnected from this? Who aren't having that level of insight and they're starting experience that bitterness, any thoughts? They're not losing the love but they're they're lost themselves. It's been such a lonely experience that they don't know what to do. Do you recommend how husbands can support their wives and helping them understand their sexuality better?

0:25:06 Leanne: That's a situation that really breaks my heart and I wish I could sit down with those wives and have a conversation with them because I feel like in a marriage where the wives have completely set down is a very difficult place to be for men. And my heart really aches for them.

0:25:26 Leanne: I know that I've listened to a couple of podcasts by Jennifer Finlayson's life. Where she addresses that. And she talks about how a husband needs to sit down with his wife and say, "This is not okay for me, I need to feel loved in this way. And we have created this dynamic within our marriage to where we won't even talk about it and that's just not okay for me anymore. I'm suffering and our marriage is suffering and I believe you're suffering as well. And something needs to change." I'm not an expert to speak on that. But I feel like from things I've heard from Jennifer, she is an expert and has helped in that area. She talks a lot about how we each collude in the kind of marriage that we have. And I think that oftentimes in a marriage if we're not speaking up, in a loving way, and just kind of claiming what our desires are and what our needs are, if we're not speaking up about those then we are colluding in the type of marriage that we are creating.

0:26:28 Daniel: I like that idea in what you're saying there. First of all, I think what you're saying is very helpful. I think a lot of women appreciate hearing that. That you feel sad that they're in those difficult, difficult places, where they don't even... To even think about sex, would just drain them and frustrate them. And somehow getting out of that.

0:26:50 Daniel: But what I also liked is, how to have that discussion. I think there's so much shame for men. There's this, I don't know if it's completely acceptable. But it tends to be more acceptable to not want to have sex and so when the higher desire partner wants to have better sex or more connecting sex, it's viewed as selfish, carnal. And so the man and the relationship is experiencing these feelings of guilt, embarrassment. Yes, I wanna have more sex, I wanna have this type of sex. And so they're shutting themselves down, before they even have that conversation with their wife. But I like how you said that when you can frame it, put all other frustrations aside.

0:27:32 Daniel: A lot of times this conversation happens in connection to so many things kids, busy life, stresses and then we throw in, "Well we're not even having sex anymore." or "That's all you want." But to be able to have that dedicated conversation and say, "Sweetheart, I love you and I want this area of our life to be better." and I keep it within that context, I think, can set each other up for success and to be able to address those issues better. I really like that insight there.

0:28:01 Leanne: And the reason why I wish I could sit down and talk to the wives is, I think we as wives, really don't understand how that oftentimes, not in every marriage, but statistically are more regularly that a husband, the way he gives love and receives love is through physical intimacy. He feels it on a very deep level. And we as wives do not understand that. I think society has conditioned us to believe that men are just sex pots and that's all they want is sex. They just wanna use women's bodies to get their own physical pleasure and I don't think that's true at all. I mean, it can be true for some people, that they're selfish and they use their sexuality in selfish ways. But I really believe for the most part that men, that's how they are wired, is to love deeply and give love deeply, to feel love deeply and give love deeply through their sexuality.

0:29:01 Leanne: And when I grew to really understand that, that's what changed for me. A big thing in the bedroom like that night when I felt the goodness coming from him, it's because I wasn't just being like yes my husband is having sex with me. I felt on a deep level what he was offering to me from every fiber of his being. When you can receive that as a woman, it is amazing and beautiful. And so I wish women could understand it and calm down their anxiety surrounding their husband sexuality and stop putting a label on what it is that they're wanting from... And open up their heart to the fact that your husband just wants to really love you deeply. That helped for me a lot.

0:29:45 Daniel: I love this so much because one of my mentors in this field has often said, "Who is your sexual role model?" And I think that's one of the biggest obstacles that we face both men and women in relationships is, you're doing something tremendous for women right now, you're providing, whether you like it or not, you're providing a healthy role model, and the journey you took to get there. It's one thing to hear you can have an amazing sex life, but what does that really mean when all your definition right now is around sex, your sexual relationship is shame, pain and bearable at times. What is it to even mean when we say a thriving healthy sex life?

0:30:30 Daniel: I think, a lot of people think... Oh, just more sex. They don't understand what you're actually saying here is a beautiful, profound connection. Which is exactly what they're desiring and is being hindered because they can't see that. But the same thing for men, and unfortunately I think a lot of men get into this place that thinking just like women, sex is bad, but yet they have these urges and desires, and they don't know how to manage them. And then they start to view them cells in the way that they've been told to view themselves.

0:31:02 Daniel: It's bad, it's dirty, they take on that definition so they don't even engage in the conversation. And I'll tell you from personal experience because we don't have sexual role models and we don't understand what healthy sex looks like. Which is a variety of experiences, based on couples personalities, cultures and their relationship with the Lord. I didn't know what I wanted. And so it was a frustrating conversation to have, because even though my wife was willing to listen and not just willing, but embracing it. I didn't know what to say because I didn't know what I, I think I knew what I wanted in a relationship, in a sexual relationship. But then I had to come to the understanding to be able to explain, you know what, this is what I'm curious about, I'm wondering if this will work well for me.

0:31:49 Daniel: And for you, let's reevaluate because I think we finally have this big conversation, this vulnerable conversation where you're now in a place to have that conversation and your husband is, "What do I say? I just want better sex. And this is how I think we're gonna get there and then we hold to that." It's like, "You don't want that? Well, you know what? I just discovered what I wanted in the relationship was to be able to explore that with you. It really had little to do with the actual physical act but now I feel safe." I could tell you, I'm really curious about this and I'm wondering if this will help in our relationship and not be shut down or viewed as selfish or promiscuous or dirty. I know in my personal experience that allowed me to at least redefine what a sexual relationship looked like because I really didn't know, I had no idea. And where do you begin with that? Even when your wife is willing to have that discussion, I think it's a daunting and scary experience but allowing yourself to reevaluate, come back and discuss, and I think that's been the most bonding opportunities with my wife is just being able to feel like we can openly discuss it. What's your experience around that? Or does that resonate with you?

0:33:03 Leanne: Yeah, when I was starting to work through all these, all the things that like the breaks that I had on, like the Good Girl Syndrome, marrying of the spiritual and sexual and just all that. When I was really starting to work through those and be able to push each one aside as I work through. We started practicing, we had sex every day, every single day for probably about six weeks and it really was a learning, and a growing, and a discovery time for the two of us. Just like what does this look like? What does this sexual relationship between the two of us? What's it gonna look like? And so, we practiced and try things and for six weeks, every single day, and it was a great learning experience for both of us, where we both felt free to express our desires and discover each other in a sexual way.

0:34:03 Daniel: What made you think of that? I mean was that just something that you randomly thought of says, "Hey, let's do this every day for six weeks and see what happens." Or where did you get that idea from?

0:34:13 Leanne: We just started practicing and it just happened. [chuckle] It is not, but that's okay. And it's funny and I have to say this. So, just recently in general conference the one man gave the talk about reading the Scripture and suddenly he's like, "Every day, every day, every day." And my husband and I left because when we were practicing, when we would start again my husband was like joking he got, "Every day, every day, every day." And so that just made us laugh so much when it came up on general conference and we looked at each other 'cause it's just kind of something cute that you would say to me as we were practicing, but we never like said, "Here's the timeframe, we're gonna do this for six weeks. Is just happened that I think we were just both excited that we were working on it, that we were discovering each other, it was exciting for us.

0:35:05 Daniel: You took away in that strategy, if we called this pursuer and avoider dynamic where he's pursuing and you're avoiding and you created as a both come together, you're treating each other as equals. I think that's crucial, I think there's this... As we engage into this discovery mode, we pay a little bit more tension like you've been cautioning people to do, to put aside your fears, but there's still that fear there that they want to respect and they don't jump in like that. And I think that's really important, I think we're preparing a little too much emotionally to go into sex and instead view it as, "Let's learn, let's try this, let's schedule it, let's at least plan for it in some way and make it a mutual goal." And that eliminates a lack of predictability, right now, at least at that point in your relationship, what I'm hearing is there's so much unpredictability and there's so much harder and discovery that need to happen that you didn't wanna give heed to that ambiguity anymore. You said, "Let's do this every day. Let's create some predictability, let's be a team on this and come together." Am I hearing you right?

0:36:16 Leanne: Mm-hmm. And one thing I wanna say too about that pursuer and... I, a couple of years before that, one thing that we did that helps us transition then 'cause like I said I did want to want sex. I did try different things throughout our marriage to figure things out. But one thing that was helpful for me is Laura Brotherson does talk about how sometimes husbands and wives can create anxiety within each other and by the husband-wife, she calls it the Hungry Dog Syndrome where the husband like it's been a while since he's had sex and he wants it, and he's requesting it and his wife doesn't want it, and so we're creating this hungry dog, she calls it syndrome, where he's chasing after her and looking for any cues that she's throwing him that he might get lucky that night.

0:37:09 Daniel: Oh, yeah.

0:37:10 Leanne: And he gets irritable and cranky because he's not getting his need's man and he's not being able to be close to his wife in the way that he wants, and so he gets cranky but the more he pursues her and chases after her, the more anxiety is created in her and so she is the avoiding wife, she will avoid touch, she will avoid flirting, she'll avoid any flirty looks from him, because she doesn't wanna send him a message in any way, shape, or form that he might get lucky. And so you're creating this anxiety within each other outside of the bedroom where he's chasing it, she's running all the time. And so, I came to my husband one day and I just came up with this on my own, I sat down with him and I said, "Okay, I need to learn to not run from you, any time you go to hug me or touch me." If I'm at the kitchen sink and he comes up and fondles me, I would elbow him like, "Stop, you always have to be touching me." I can't even begin to tell you how many times I said, "Can you not just love me for my brain? Does it always have to be about my body?" I've said that so many times to him.

0:38:12 Leanne: Why does it always have to be about my body? And the sad thing is he just wanted to be affectionate with me, he just wanted to love me, he just wanted to come and connect with me. But I always perceived it as, "This is sexual, so stop." So anyway, I sat down with him and I said, "I need to learn to stop running," and so at that time, what I said was, "Can we please schedule sex? How many days a week would you like to have sex?" And so we negotiated how many days that would be and we said, "Okay," then I said, "Which days are those?" And so we decided upon which two days of the week those were gonna be. And I said, "Okay, I promise you that on those two days I will say yes, we will have sex." But on the other days outside of the bedroom or even inside the bedroom, no matter how much touch we give each other you cannot ask me for sex. But I need to learn to become comfortable kissing you, embracing you, allowing you to touch me in those fondling ways, and I need to learn to be able to calm my anxieties down around those types of touches. And I said, "Even if we full-on make-out on the couch, you cannot ask me for sex if it's a non-sex day," so that I can learn to be comfortable with touch, with your touch, with your wanting to be just intimate with me just through touch that's not sexual in nature.

0:39:34 Daniel: I can't tell you how successful that strategy is. Too many people feel like, "Well that's gonna kill the mood and the desire by scheduling. And I will even depending on the relationship, tell them to schedule specifically when you're gonna do it, 9 o'clock at night, 8 o'clock in the morning, otherwise we find we push it out, but not everybody has to do that. Like your approach generally saying, "Tuesdays and Thursdays, for example, are our sex days and it will happen that day," that allows us to put aside our anxieties. Okay, I'm not gonna engage 'cause as you said, "This sexual dynamic becomes a pursuer and an avoider experience where the man is looking for every clue, looking for all those micro expressions. Is this a flirt or is she just being nice with me? Can I go in for a loving touch? And then it feels like groping, it feels like inappropriate, it feels like objecting, and then it shuts down the loving engagement that the the husband is trying to express. But by setting up a specific time we're able to put those anxieties aside. Okay, I don't have to worry about being grabbed today, randomly, or I don't have to worry about constantly looking at my wife.

0:40:41 Daniel: Is this the right time? Is she giving me a clue? We put all that stress aside, so we've been able to eliminate that stress. We've already got too much stress in our relationship, and then to be able to engage, and follow through with that. And a lot of couples feel like that kills the romance. And so the first question I ask is, "Are you having romance right now? [chuckle] No, no, none. And so being able to create that predictability will then allow for romance to happen. And so you can create, so excellent approach. Absolutely excellent.

0:41:15 Leanne: Because I found that in doing that, being able to calm down that anxiety, then when he did come up, for instance, behind me at the kitchen sink and give me a hug and then maybe even fondled me a little bit. I was able to learn to fold into that touch, to really embrace that and appreciate it, and just know that he just was wanting my attention. He was wanting to be affectionate with me, and I was able to fold into that instead of being angry, "Ahh he wants sex with me tonight," it's like, "Nope, it's not a sex night," I can fold into this, he's just wanting a moment with me at the kitchen sink. So that helped a lot, and that was a couple of years before the whole exercise of every day. And now it's not even a thought, we engage in all kinds of touch and flirting, and it's not even a worry in either one of our minds if it will or will not lead to the bedroom. Our relationship now it's beautiful, it's wonderful. All of it is just embraced and cherished.

0:42:19 Daniel: Do you have any words of advice or cautions that you've learned from your relationship that you feel is important to share that we haven't addressed yet?

0:42:28 Leanne: Any cautions?

0:42:29 Daniel: Yeah, maybe reflecting on your own approach, What words of advice would you give the wives who are maybe willing to, "Okay, this is scary for me, I wanna open up and embrace my husband's sexual touches." Is there any words of caution around that? Do you feel like that can go wrong? Or did it go wrong for you at any point? Or any other aspects of your sexual relationship and self-discovery?

0:42:55 Leanne: I definitely feel like there are still boundaries. And I still give myself permission if there's a certain thing I don't like, I voice it. Just because we're being more open and accepting, you still have your boundaries and it is absolutely okay to voice your boundaries and say, "I don't care for that, or I don't like when you touch me in that certain way it really bothered me because of the," is that what you mean?

0:43:22 Daniel: Yeah, that's a great clarification. 'Cause I don't want the listeners to think, "Okay, I'm going to follow Leanne's example and just give myself completely over to my husband's sexual desires and anything goes. You still get that right to say, "I'm uncomfortable with this, I'm not sure about this, I'm not ready for that." Whatever that boundary looks like. And so how do you go about or how would you recommend going about that? 'cause it could be a fine line at times, right? You're wanting to explore, but you also don't wanna shut your partner down. How do you have that communication or to navigate that, that disinterest or that boundary without shutting down, or regressing in your recovery?

0:44:06 Leanne: Well, for me, we have progressed so far that I do it just because of the personality that I am. I kinda do it in a blunt, but jokey way, I will say to him, "I am not a milk cow. Please don't touch me that way. It makes me feel like a milk cow."

0:44:26 Leanne: Like, stuff like that. Because we've come so far that it's not... We know where we are.

0:44:33 Daniel: It's not rejection.

0:44:33 Leanne: No, it's not rejection at all because he knows that nine times out of 10 the way he touches me I love and I accept, and I revel in. But if there's a certain way I'll be like, "Hey, that doesn't feel good to me," and sometimes I'll make a joke out of it, but sometimes, I'm like... But I would say though in the bedroom, this is like outside of the bedroom, but in the bedroom when you're trying new things I definitely am more tender, or more thoughtful of his feelings, like make sure just, "Why don't you try it this way 'cause that way is hurting me a little bit." Or I'm more careful with how I... So just because that is so vulnerable place to be in the... You're all there, your whole body, all of you is there. And so I feel like more of a sacred space. I'm definitely more careful.

0:45:22 Daniel: And I think husbands need to embrace the idea once you get to at least this level of sexual development and healthy approach. Recognizing it's not a rebuke, it's not a criticism. It's I want you to pleasure me, and if you're willing I could give you ideas on what will help, and right now that's not helping. And being able to embrace that as a learning tool and as a connecting tool as opposed to filling criticized and shut down. Because I think husbands too often will hear it, "Stop doing that," and they stop everything or they give up, or whatever.

0:46:04 Leanne: I think husbands they get such a bad rap. It just makes me so sad. But I think they are very sensitive in this area. They feel like they're, society tells them that they should be these sexual experts who should automatically know how to please a woman or whatever. And it opens them up to, there's a lot of pressure that they feel to try to please their wives. And then I wanna talk about that for a minute, so the learning each other sexually. Too often we think that men just need to automatically know what their wives would want. And recently, I've heard this idea and concept and it's absolutely true, and made so much such in my head. You're the only one that's in charge of your sexual pleasure, you're in charge of it because you're the only one that's in your head and inside your body. Your husband's not, he doesn't know what you're thinking. He doesn't know what you're feeling inside of your body. And so yes he's trying to pleasure you, but if you don't voice if that's pleasurable or not he's not gonna know. And so it takes a lot of communication. And if a wife is not receiving, if she's unhappy with her sex life and basically all they're having his intercourse because she hasn't voiced anything different and she hates it and resents it.

0:47:36 Leanne: Well, my question to them is, "Have you asked for anything different? Because how is he supposed to know that you want anything different? And I think me, I talked about this in my last podcast. But men and women really do need to understand each other sexualities and how we pick, and that women tend to be more emotional. And if my emotional needs were not being meet outside the bedroom, then it is hard for me to then be physical with my husband. If I feel like he was being, that he was mean to me on a certain day, or just really being grumpy and kinda taking it out on me, I'm gonna be less inclined to want to then be physical with him in the bedroom if he asks me for it. It's like, "You were kind of a jerk today, I'm not feeling emotionally connected to you because you hurt my feelings." But sometimes maybe we need to get to the bottom of that."Have you had a rough day? You seem really stressed today. Can I help you with that at all? Can we talk about that?" And maybe it's the end of the day and he answers that conversation, "Yes, he was really stressed and yes he would love to be with us intimately to get some tenderness from us to relieve that stress." And so yes, we can't completely shut him down because they were barking outside the bedroom.

0:48:55 Leanne: But I think men also has a duty to understand that it's important for women to feel connected on emotional level with their husbands in order to be able to be intimate in the bedroom. But then on the other hand, women need to understand that men that's the way they connect with you is through the physical. That's the way they show you that they love you and you need to love and embrace that.

0:49:16 Leanne: And women and men we've talked about it before, we need to figure out what each other likes. We need to have some [0:49:23] ____ focused exercises within our marriage where you're just really discovering each other's bodies, and discovering what each other likes. That needs to be happening. Women need to figure out what they love, so do men. And we need to come together as a couple and figure out and what then together we can do to bring the most pleasure to each other in all aspects, in the four-levels, spiritual, mental, emotional, bring all that together, and figure it out. And it's a journey. I think people think it's gonna happen overnight. It is not, it doesn't happen overnight. It's a journey and you need to embrace it as a journey. This is a journey of discovery that we are on together, and embrace it and be excited about it.

0:50:09 Daniel: And it never ends, because we're constantly changing...

0:50:13 Leanne: No.

0:50:13 Daniel: As human beings biologically, emotionally, stress, whatever. And so if we think, "Oh that's a mistake," we finally feel like we've had some breakthroughs we enjoy sex this way, and I think that's why a lot of couples get stuck in a rut and repeating certain routine sexual behaviors is 'cause we knew it worked then, but it still needs to be discovered. Is this still working and explore that and also a thought, going back to what you're saying about if he's grumpy, I actually recommend that you first have sex and I think it goes along with this concept of being responsible for your own sexual arousal, not making somebody else a partner or excuse me, relying on somebody else for your arousal. There is definitely a need for your partner to be loving and kind to you to help that along, but I've often suggested have sex and then have that conversation of, you appeared grumpy today, and it was kind of hard to be around that. Can we talk about that? And you'll find in almost every situation, after you have sex it's much easier to have that conversation. Much, much easier and to recover and reduce that type of behavior.

0:51:33 Leanne: Sex really is or can be kind of a bomb, like a healing bomb for couples. It's a beautiful thing, it really is. It's such a beautiful gift that God has given to couples, and it breaks my heart to see all the struggle that surrounds it. Because when the barriers can be broken down and the husbands and wives can really work on this part of their relationship, it really is a healing bomb for the rest of their relationship. It's like the crowning jewel and it breaks my heart when so many couples just struggle with it, and so many women just shut it down. Not understanding it at all, not understanding what it can be. It just, it really makes me sad.

0:52:39 Daniel: I think we focus a lot on how the adversary can corrupt the sexual experience, and we generally view that in the context of perverting it in physical acts. But the one aspect that the adversary tries to destroy sexuality is by avoiding it. If he can't corrupt it, then avoid it. I refer to that as sexual silence, and that can take on many, many forms. Whether it's just not talking about, or avoiding it, or saying a certain behavior is bad, it shuts it down and it creates that divisiveness. But if we're able to use sex in a way to communicate we could bring each other together. And that's the beauty that I hear you saying over and over today.

0:53:31 Leanne: I fully believe, my husband I have talked about this very thing quite often. The adversary, before we're married he will tempt us with trying to get us to have sex outside of marriage because after we're married he will try to get us to stop having sex. It is so true because he knows that will reek havoc within a marriage, and he doesn't care how he destroys a person. He doesn't care if he's having you have sex outside of marriage, or get you to stop having sex inside a marriage. He'll try to destroy people in any way he can, and he knows how powerful a marriage is when they can be deeply connected sexually. A marriage that is truly intimate in all levels of their marriage, that is a powerful marriage, and satan knows that, and he will try to get at it in any way you can. And the biggest way he does it is by shutting down sexuality. I firmly believe that.

0:54:28 Daniel: Absolutely. Leanne, you've been so insightful. Is there any other things that you would like to address before we end today's podcast?

0:54:37 Leanne: Okay, one more thing really, really fast.

0:54:39 Daniel: Absolutely, take your time.

0:54:40 Leanne: Can I just say that having kids is really tiring. And my husband and I weren't able to have children, but we adopted two children. And sex and being able to work on your life, sex life, it gets easier, and easier as the kids get older and older. And so I would just say give yourself grace in this area. Both husbands and wives need to realize that kids can be exhausting, and there's seasons of our lives that are harder for us to work on our sex lives just because of exhaustion. There are two things that kill desire the most, one is exhaustion, and the other one is being pressured. If you feel pressured to have sex or if you are exhausted those are the two main killers of desire. And so I just wanna say, just know that and work through that. It's gonna be tricky to work through when your kids are small, especially, but just try to keep working on that as much as you can. And just keep looking forward to that day, it's gonna get easier, it's gonna get easier. And now that we're empty nesters it's amazing because we work on it whenever we want. But we had something to work on it on the other side of our kids being gone, like we started working on this a couple of years ago. And so we weren't staring at each other when both of our kids are gone saying, "We don't know who we are anymore. Like who are you?

0:56:17 Leanne: I haven't been creating this relationship with you all these years. I don't even know you." And husbands, I didn't realize how hard kids were until I had my little grand baby for two weeks, a couple of weeks ago, and he kicked my butt. I had him for two weeks and I was exhausted, and it really made me appreciate again young mothers. And so husbands just step in where you can to help her, especially if it's a night that you know you're gonna have sex. Help her get the kids to bed, help her with dinner, help her relieve some of that exhaustion, so she has some energy left for you at the end, 'cause honestly kids can be exhausting.

0:57:04 Daniel: Yes, they can be.

0:57:05 Leanne: I discovered that. [chuckle]

0:57:07 Daniel: Absolutely.

0:57:07 Leanne: I discovered that a couple of weeks ago. I was like, "Oh my God."

0:57:09 Daniel: In with those, to borrow this idea that we talked about earlier. Even in my opinion, I find that with kids scheduling is even more important 'cause you can do it during nap time time, and create some sort of expectation around that, positive expectation with your spouse, so that you don't feel like you're being demanded from constantly. Thank you Leanne. I really appreciate you coming on and sharing more of your story, thank you.

0:57:38 Leanne: Can I say one more thing really, really fast.

0:57:40 Daniel: Of course. Go for it.

0:57:41 Leanne: Okay, one thing that helped me the most and then I'll be done. It's been bugging me 'cause I knew I wanted to say it and I couldn't remember what it was. Because men and women's desire is so different, there's responsive desire versus, what's the other one? I'm sure you know it, responsive versus spontaneous. So a husband is more spontaneous desire, when he thinks about sex he's ready to go right then, and a woman is more responsive, she kinda has to kinda start being intimate and then the desire comes. And so the biggest thing that helped for me was to always have a pilot light lit with inside of me. And what the pilot light says to me is that, "I am so connected to you, and I want to be known by you, and I want you to know me, and I wanna connect on a deep level, we are already connected on that deep level." And so that pilot light is always lit and whenever my husband wants to be intimate or whatever, and I initiate just as much as he does now. But whenever he does want to initiate the answer is always yes because that pilot light is like, "Yup," and I know it will take me a little bit to get in the mood, like right now I'm not sexually feeling it in this moment. I'm not turned on in this moment, but I know once we get started it will come.

0:58:56 Leanne: And I think so often women are like, "I just don't have a sex drive, I just don't think about it. I don't have a sex drive." Well it's 'cause we're created differently. We're responsive, we have to be talked into sex, or feel start to engage and then the response comes. And so, I think, we as women we need to remember that. You might not feel like you're in the mood right now, but start being intimate and you'll find that not too long into it you're in the mood. And so keeping that pilot light always lit for me is very helpful.

0:59:45 Daniel: I think that was a wonderful way to end us. Thank you, I appreciate your time.

0:59:52 Leanne: Yup, yup. Thank you.

0:59:53 Daniel: Alright.

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Daniel Burgess Daniel Burgess

Part 1-2 | How Desiring to Understand My Husband’s Struggle Led to Healthy Dialogue and Healing and Discovering My Own Sexuality

Part 1-2 | How Desiring to Understand My Husband’s Struggle Led to Healthy Dialogue and Healing and Discovering My Own Sexuality

Leanne is a wife of 31 years. She has 2 children who are both married. She is the grandmother of one. She is a retired preschool teacher of 17 years. She is enjoying her season of time with her husband as an empty nester.

 **Note from Leanne, please read prior to listening: I think there might be some confusion in our story for some people. Some people I think believe that we started to view pornography together as a couple. That is not what happened at all. That day that I sat down with him and opened my heart to understand what was driving him to look was the last day that he viewed it. So I just want to clarify that.

When my husband and I started the journey of turning towards each other in all of the aspects of our lives and began to create a truly intimate marriage, the “need” for my husband to turn to porn left him. And my “need” to constantly check up on him left me. And I was healed from being stuck in betrayal trauma. The connection that we made in turning towards one another to proactively create what we really wanted for our marriage was the answer to porn not being an issue for either of us from that point forward. Turning towards each other healed both of us.**

[music]

00:02 Voice Over: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel in this episode of Improving Intimacy.

00:21 Daniel A Burgess: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. Today we have Leanne on the line. I'm excited to talk with her. I came across her in our Improving Intimacy group on Facebook and I was excited to read the things that she had presented and I would love to explore that with her today. But before we get going, Leanne, tell us a little about yourself.

00:40 Leanne: Okay. First off, thanks for having me on your show. I've been married for 31 years. I have two daughters who are both married. I am a recent grandma of about a year, and I am an active member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and I serve in my Stake Relief Society presidency, so that's been a fun calling for me, for about the past year. And I'm a retired pre-school teacher, had my own preschool business for 17 years and retired about two years ago.

01:12 DB: Oh my goodness. What's it like being in retirement now?

01:15 Leanne: It's nice. I like it. [chuckle]

01:17 DB: Do you get to do whatever you want?

01:19 Leanne: Yep. [chuckle]

01:20 DB: Good, good.

01:22 Leanne: Yep.

01:22 DB: Well, one of the reasons why I'm having you on is you're an example of what I was hoping would happen in the Improving Intimacy Facebook group. You're coming in, you're sharing your personal journey, your vulnerableness, you're sharing the difficulties that you went through in your relationship, and you're doing it in a way that's, at least to me, it seems like it's improving yourself and other people are listening. And the posts that you've made over the last few months that you've been in the group have meant a lot to me as you're one of these individuals who clearly have been through a lot in your marriage, in your life, and you're presenting this information from a self-reflective perspective. I think a lot of us get in this habit of, "What do we wish our spouse would do?"

02:09 DB: And one of the things I found really valuable from you was, "Here was my journey from my perspective, and what I did to address these difficult topics." And I would love to explore that a little bit more with you. Do you mind telling us all what your journey was like? Where were you 10-15 years ago in your relationship, what did it look like, and what brought you to this point? I know that's a big question, but what do you feel is important for us to know about that journey?

02:37 Leanne: Okay. So I'm gonna go back a little bit further in 10 or 15 years ago just so that people can get an understanding of me. I had a really traumatic childhood and teenage years. And as a child and as a teenager, I was very, very timid, pretty much afraid of my own shadow type of child; was very, very timid. But there was a lot of trauma that happened in my childhood. And so, when I came out of that and became an adult, I came away from that with the determination that I was never gonna allow anyone to ever hurt me again. As a child and as a teenager, I felt like I didn't have a lot of control over the things that happened in my life. And as an adult, I felt like I was gonna take control of what happened in my life. And so, I became, in my marriage, very early on, extremely defensive. I kind of came into it with my claws out as a way to protect myself.

03:43 Leanne: And so, early on in our marriage, whenever I felt like I got my feelings hurt or whatever, I immediately would lash out, sometimes very brutally. And just not lash out physically but lash out with my words, and my anger, and it all stemmed from a place of protection. I really was trying to protect myself. And there was one incident... So now, we'll fast-forward several years into my marriage, probably 15 years into my marriage, just to kind of explain this. I asked my husband if he would help me make dinner. And he came in, and I asked if he would drain the spaghetti noodles, and so he did. And I do it with a strainer, and he did it by putting a lid on the pot and draining it that way, and I completely freaked out. And I said, "That is not the way we drain spaghetti noodles, that's not even right." And I like completely, completely freaked out. And so he just quietly set the pot down and left the kitchen.

04:51 Leanne: And as I watched him walk away, I was like, "What in the world am I doing? It's spaghetti. Who cares? It doesn't matter. There's not a right or a wrong way to drain spaghetti." And it was in that moment that I realized I needed help. I had become so controlling in our marriage that even to the point that I controlled how he was gonna drain spaghetti noodles, and I realized in that moment how ridiculous that was.

05:24 DB: So you had childhood trauma, and that was brought into your relationship as trauma does, but the insight that you're having, I'm curious about that. Because usually, couples or individuals who struggle with this type of lashing out, may be vaguely aware of it, but not... It sounds like you had, was it maybe an epiphany or were you aware that this was a problem before the spaghetti noodle incident or was that kind of the moment of discovery for you? What was your insight like with your struggles?

05:58 Leanne: I definitely realized it over time, and I think I just gave myself the excuse of, "I was protecting myself." But in that moment with the spaghetti noodles, I think that's what made me realize, because honestly, spaghetti noodles is so insignificant. But because I made such a big deal out of it, I realized just how serious my issues were, because I wouldn't freak out so much if it weren't serious over such a small thing and I realized that in that moment. And so, that's when I started to go to counseling. And when I went to counseling, that's where I learned that I had anxiety. I didn't realize that I had anxiety before, like a true anxiety disorder. I had episodes where I would have panic attacks before and I got help for the panic attacks, but I didn't realize up until that point that I truly had an anxiety disorder.

07:00 Leanne: And so, the therapist explained to me that with anxiety, in order to keep myself safe and level, I was very controlling. Because with the anxiety, I tried to put everything into a box because if I could control everything and keep it in a box, then I felt safe. And so, she explained to me that that's what I was doing, that's why I was controlling; trying to control my husband, trying to control my kids, is so that I could keep my world safe and to feel like my world could stay sane.

07:34 DB: Was that a scary realization for you or was it one of those discoveries like, "Oh, this makes sense. Now, I know what to do going forward."?

07:43 Leanne: It made sense. It made a lot of sense to me. But still, after explaining that to me and after truly learning that I had an anxiety disorder, I still continued to control, somewhat. I mean, I tried to get better, but I still also controlled.

08:03 DB: Oh, of course.

08:03 Leanne: And this time, though, I gave myself a different excuse. I gave the excuse of, "I have a mental disorder, and so I'm still okay." I still justify it, I can't help it. It's my anxiety. I can't help that I'm controlling. It's to soothe my anxiety.

08:23 DB: So whereas, before, it was you were controlling things without really an understanding of your anxiety. But now, it was comforting to know what was happening and it made sense, but you're now blaming or excusing it, because of that.

08:38 Leanne: Yeah. Yeah. And then one night, there was an incident that happened between my husband and I, and this incident, I don't wanna go into detail with. Some of the other ones, I will later on, but there was an incident that happened one evening that really shook both of us to the core. And when it happened, all of a sudden, I looked at him and realized how deeply I truly did love him, and the thought that came into my mind very strongly was, "He is not the enemy." And in that moment, I realized that because of all the hurt and the trauma that happened as a child, I was trying to protect myself from him even. And I realized in that moment, he was not the one that hurt me. He was not the one that did all that damage to me as a child and as a teenager. He was not the enemy, and in that moment, I realized that I didn't wanna treat him like that ever again. I don't want to ever feel like I needed to protect myself from him. And so, that was a huge moment in our marriage, and it shook him, too.

10:04 DB: How much was your husband a part of this journey and discovery of yours? You went to the therapist. Was this an individual...

10:12 Leanne: Yes, it was individual.

10:14 DB: And not a couples? And were you sharing with him or was he just seeing these changes? Was this a discovery process with him also?

10:21 Leanne: I definitely shared with him. Everything I was learning in counseling, I would share with him. And so he was definitely kept aware of everything I was going through and he knew all about my childhood, like he knew everything that happened with me. We've always talked and communicated, but in that moment, I felt like it was a moment that we could either allow a wall, a really big wall, to be built between us. And it could be the beginning of us really turning away from each other and kind of ending our marriage or it was a situation where it kinda was staring us in the face, like, "What do you wanna do? You have a decision to make." And we chose to turn towards each other.

11:08 Leanne: So we really started, at that point, moving forward, like really trying to be better communicators and try to be softer with each other and be kinder. And I was able to learn from that point forward. When I felt the urge to control, I felt my anxiety well up, I felt that urge to control, I was then self-aware enough. That situation really caused me to be self-aware. And from that moment forward, I was able to stop myself when I felt the anxiety well up, when I felt the need to control, I could stop myself and say, "No. What is more important in this moment? This thing that you're starting to want to control or Wayne? What is the more important thing to you in this moment?" And every time, I was able to pick my husband. And so, I could calm myself down and be like, "This does not matter." And I was able either to approach it more calmly or drop it all together 'cause it really wasn't important.

12:19 DB: I'm sure there's listeners thinking, "That's a great discovery. How did you do that?" It's one thing to have the insight and another to apply that knowledge. Was there any type of methods that you used to not only be aware of what's happening with your anxiety, but to control your controlling behavior? Was there any kind of meditation or thought exercise? You did mention, "Which one's more important?" Did that alone help reduce the anxiety or was there additional steps?

12:52 Leanne: I feel like, for me, that helped because I'm very much a self-aware person. And even in the years of lashing out, I knew what I was doing. I just gave myself the excuse to do it anyway.

13:09 DB: You're finding reasons to justify it.

13:12 Leanne: Mm-hmm.

13:13 DB: You're asking yourself, "Which one's more important?" now, so you're putting the responsibility on yourself to choose a new path. That's powerful.

13:22 Leanne: Yup, and it is powerful. It is powerful to take control because really, you are the only one that has control of you. And it's powerful when you realize that and really apply that in your life, like really powerful things can happen for you when you realize you have the control and stop justifying.

13:47 DB: Is there an example that you feel comfortable in sharing and how this played out with you and your husband? Maybe something very difficult that you two had to address.

13:55 Leanne: Yes. So this is where I kinda wanted to switch gears anyway, so I was... I'm glad you asked that. So the other hard thing that we faced in our marriage, my mental health, but then, and my childhood trauma. But the other thing we faced was I had a huge struggle with physical intimacy in my marriage. Because of some things that happened during my childhood years, and my teenage years, and then also just growing up in the church and learning about intimacy and having young women lessons about the chewed piece of gum and things, I came into a marriage really suffering hard with the good girl syndrome. I really had a hard time with intimacy.

14:42 Leanne: I felt very naughty soon after we were married. I felt like it was dirty and icky, and I just really didn't want any part of it. And so, six months into our marriage, I shut it all down, and I would not allow any physical intimacy for the next six months. So here's this newly-wed couple thinking they were excited to be married and excited to be... Have a physical relationship, and then I discover I hated it, and I shut it down six months in, and that was devastating to my husband. That was really hard for him to go through. And then over the course of time, we picked back up. We were physically having sex again, but I still struggled for years and years and years, I struggled. It took me 10 years to learn... To finally have an orgasm. But even after learning that, how to finally be able to do that, I still did not enjoy physical intimacy at all.

15:35 DB: It wasn't just feeling guilty, you didn't get pleasure from intimacy.

15:39 Leanne: No, no. And even though, that was so hard for my husband to understand 'cause even after I learned how to have an orgasm, he was so confused because I still hated sex so much. And he's like, "I don't understand how you can hate it so much when you can orgasm. To me, you're receiving physical pleasure, like you're having an orgasm. Why don't you like it? Why don't you enjoy it?" And it's because in my mind, I still felt like it was just dirty, and naughty, and basically, it was duty sex. But yeah, even in the duty sex, it's like, "Okay, I'll have duty sex with you, but I'm still not gonna walk away with it with at least having an organ." I at least want some physical pleasure from it if I'm gonna do it, but I still was not connected at all. Any time we would try anything new, I felt extreme guilt. I felt dirty, I felt if I enjoyed it at all, I was like a prostitute.

16:37 DB: Was this guilt driving you to confess to the bishop or was this something you were privately, and/or maybe with your husband suffering from?

16:46 Leanne: Just private. Just my husband and I. When we would be having sex, I would constantly be telling him to hurry. "Hurry, you're enjoying it too much." I would say that to him, "You're enjoying it too much, hurry." And it was so hurtful to him because he didn't wanna just to have sex with my body. He wanted to connect and I just couldn't get there. And so, a couple years into our marriage, I discovered... And I appreciate my husband for giving me permission to share this part of our story 'cause this isn't easy to be open and vulnerable. I'm way more open and vulnerable a person he is. And so, I asked him if I could share what I was gonna share today and he said yes. He said, "As hard as it is to have this be out there and be public, if our journey can help other couples out there, I'm willing to share this," so I appreciate that he was willing to let me talk about this. But I discovered a couple of years into our marriage that he was viewing pornography. And of course, I freaked out, and went into betrayal trauma and, "Why are you looking at that and why am I not enough?" And, "We're having sex, why do you think you need to go to that?"

18:01 Leanne: So, over the next... Gosh, we were married for 31 years, so 25 years, off and on, I would catch him again. And I would go through the same thing, freak out and cry and, "Why are you doing this?" And, "Why am I not enough?" And, "We're having sex, why isn't that enough for you?" And after the incident... And the other thing, too, that was super, super hard is every time I would catch him and discover it on the computer and all that, I would approach him about it, and he would always lie. Just look me straight in the eye and lie to me about it. "No, I have been really good. You must have discovered something that was old, that... "

18:43 Leanne: And he would lie to me every time and I knew he was lying. And so then I would brood, and punish, and hold sex back from him 'cause I knew he was lying until he would finally come to me and confess. And then, I would say, "The hardest thing about this is when you lie. I feel like I could handle if you came to me and said, 'I've slipped up again, I need help. I need your help in getting through this.' I can handle that more, but you lying to me is what's the hardest." But honestly, looking back on it, I don't know if that's true. I think still, if he would've come to me before I discovered it and confessed or whatever, I still think I would've freaked out just as hard.

19:28 DB: That's huge that you recognized that and I appreciate you stating already that you have this type of insight for yourself, and I hear that a lot where the wives will say the lying is worse, and then we look at how it's been approached before. And even when the spouse comes forward, there's this brooding, there's this punishing, there's this behavior that essentially prevents or makes it increasingly more difficult for the husband to discuss or share, and that's a huge barrier and a struggle that I think a lot of couples have in developing that trust. And this lying has fostered... And I'm not suggesting in any way that it's the wife's fault that the husband lies, but the environment really does create it. And It sounds like your husband didn't wanna hurt you, at all, but something was happening and didn't wanna disappoint. And so he was defaulting to the hidden behaviors that... Is that a fair representation?

20:29 Leanne: Yes, that's exactly... Because when I would ask him, "Why do you lie, why do you lie to me about it? Just tell me." 'Cause he said, "Because I don't wanna hurt you." Because experience taught him time and time again that every time I would discover it, it would just be this huge thing and huge shaming and huge amount of guilt and guilt I would put on him, as well as just the fact that he was already feeling guilty himself for viewing it. Fast forward to after we had the big moment where I had a epiphany of, "He is not the enemy." And we were starting to really connect in a different way in our marriage, even though I was still struggling with the physical intimacy. We were starting to connect on other areas of our marriage, we were starting to be more vulnerable with each other with our feeling, and communication, and we were just really starting to turn towards each other.

21:23 Leanne: And so there was a day where I discovered, on the computer again, that he'd been looking. And immediately, my body welled up into that anxiety, and, "Here we go again." And I started to feel even more hurt because, "Here we're doing so well, we're turning towards each other, we've been making all this progress. Why is he still feeling the need to look at pornography?" And so, I felt those old feelings to well up and I stopped myself, and I said, "No, I will not approach this in the same way that I always have, because we are starting to be different and this needs to be different." And so I approached him and told him, "I noticed that you've been viewing pornography again." And literally, I took him by the hand, and I took him to the computer, and I sat him down and I said, "I want you to show me, I wanna understand what is driving you to pornography. What are you searching for, what are you lacking in our marriage that you feel the need to search? I want you to show me."

22:34 DB: That is huge and requires a lot of courage. It's something that I've shared with clients from the beginning. If we can find this as an opportunity to connect with our partner, I'm not saying we explore the porn with them or view it with them but ask that important question, "What's driving it, what's driving you to it?" And join them in that experience and explore. Enter their mind, enter their desires and thought processes. What gave you that idea? Did you... Was that just a thought you had or were you using the techniques you were implementing to improve your connection, what allowed you to do that?

23:15 Leanne: I think it was because of the connection that we were starting to make in other areas, because of that. Other huge incident that happened: I had completely started to look at my husband differently through different eyes. And the thought just came into my mind just to ask him, "What is it?" And so we sat at the computer for a while and he showed me the person that he watched her videos the most, and he said, "I chose her because she reminds me of you." And then we actually watched one of the videos together and he said, "The other reason I chose her is because she only makes videos with her boyfriend in real-life, it's her real-life boyfriend. And the reason why I choose them is because I can see the connection and that's what I want for us." And I was so grateful in that moment as we viewed that together. Like my heart hurt for him so much, but because of how I had been to him physically all of our lives...

24:31 Leanne: And an other thing, and I don't remember where this letter came in, I stumbled upon a podcast by Jennifer Finlayson-Fife who I adore. She has turned my life around, as far as the physical intimacy part and made me able to work on that but... And to be able to work on my own sexuality. But I came upon a podcast one night where she read a letter or a letter was read from a husband whose wife absolutely hated physical intimacy and she completely shut it down in her marriage. And it was from his perspective, and how heartbroken he was and how much he loved his wife so much. But she wouldn't even discuss sex, with him, she completely shut it down, and she was like, "If you love me, you know I hate it and you wouldn't discuss it with me, anymore. If you were on a good priesthood holder, you would leave me alone about it". And as I listened to that letter, my heart went out to that husband and I just started to cry and my husband was asleep beside me in the bed, and I realized that he could've written that letter. Not to the full extent, 'cause we were having sex but he could've, in some aspect, written that letter.

25:37 Leanne: And so the combination of hearing that letter and sitting down with him, understanding what was driving him to look at pornography was huge for me to then be like, "Okay, I need to discover my own sexuality, I need to embrace it, I need to learn how to be not only okay with it, but love that part of myself. I need to figure it out." So after that, I listened to everything I could find and get my hands on from Jennifer Finlayson. I purchased two of her courses. And then last year, where I had come a long, long, long way in like two years, I actually went physically to Utah to her Art of Desire class, for the biggest reason was I wanted to meet her in person because she had changed my life and I wanted to thank her in person. So, I went to that last year and it was wonderful, and I even learned even more about myself when I went to that.

26:34 Leanne: But the other thing, too, I was learning about my sexuality, but I was also learning about his, men's sexuality. I think it's so important that husbands and wives learn not only about how we tick ourselves, how our sexuality works, but we need to learn about our spouse's sexuality. It is so important that men and women understand each other because if you don't, you're gonna butt heads all the time in that realm of your marriage 'cause you're not gonna understand, 'cause we're different. Men and women are different, we're created differently. Our sexual drives and desires and needs are different. And so that we need to discover that about each other.

27:13 Leanne: And one of the things that helped my husband is, in one of the podcasts, Dr. Fife talked about a book, She Comes First. And, some people are put off by that book because it is about oral sex, 'cause some people have a hard brake against oral sex. But for me... I read the book first. For me, the value in the book was... I feel like the first half of the book... It's a male author and I feel like he talks so much about women's sexuality, and I learned things from him even about myself. And so after I read the book, I asked my husband if he was willing to read it and he said, "Yes, I'll read it." That was huge for him and he was a different lover after that because he had an epiphany, and learned females and how females are different than males. And we think differently, and how we receive pleasure is different. And he became completely different after that. So I think it's important too that husbands learn about women's sexuality, both, it needs to go both directions. That was huge for us.

28:21 DB: Yes, what a discovery. And this is what I have often referred to is we give pornography way too much power in how we respond to it, how we interact with it. Fortunately, your husband had some level of awareness and insight also to recognize, "I'm actually craving you, and I miss you, I want you, and this is what I'm pursuing through pornography." I think that's actually a lot more common than we give men credit for. We often look at it, this is this escalating drug that's destroying people. What's it gonna do? You could've came in there and says, "This is exactly why I don't wanna be intimate, it's destroying our relationship." But you took it as an opportunity to not give pornography the power, but you gave yourself the power and him to explore and connect, and say, "What about this is important to you?" And here it set you on this course of discovery. I've seen this over and over and over again. When we give pornography the power, we blame the pornography as opposed to making sense of the human aspect of why we're doing it. We actually enable it as opposed to, like you did, turn it into your relationship. And it sounds like to me, I wanna clarify just so that the audience... I realize we have a variety of listeners here. You weren't trying to become or resemble the porn...

29:51 Leanne: No.

29:51 DB: You were recognizing your husband had desires, he wanted to connect with you in this way, and you opened up yourself so that his expression and desire could come to you, as opposed to the pornography. Is that what you're saying?

30:07 Leanne: Yes. Yes, very much so. And then once I started to work on my sexuality, we then, of course, started working as a couple on improving and truly becoming intimate in our sexual life. And it was an incredible journey, and it still is an incredible journey. But I felt like I couldn't be physical or sexual and spiritual in the same body. I couldn't understand how that worked because we're taught that we need to be virtuous and lovely and of all these things, and I couldn't marry that with then also being sexual. And so for a couple of years, I actually had to turn off my spirituality in a way, and I'm sad that I felt like I needed to do that because I know now, that I didn't need to do that. But...

31:02 DB: But what does that mean, Leanne? Did you stop going to church, or what does it mean to turn off your spirituality?

31:07 Leanne: No, I kept going to church, I kept my callings, I kept serving. I felt like if I allowed myself to feel the spirit, then anything my husband and I were trying in the bedroom, or experimenting with, or anything that we were trying in the bedroom, that I would feel guilt about it. And I did not wanna feel guilt in that part of my journey whatsoever. I wanted my husband and I to be able just to discover each other, and discover our intimate life without feeling any guilt because before any time we would try something new or anything, I felt naughty. And so, I felt like I had to shut my bedroom door, so to speak, on Heavenly Father, even, "You're not allowed in this space right now." And that... It brings me teary to think that I thought that way, that I had to shut the door on Heavenly Father because really, on the other side of it, Heavenly Father was so involved because the beauty that we created between each other, it feels celestial in nature now. And that's why it makes me feel so sad that I felt the need to do that.

32:19 DB: Leanne, this discovery is... I'm almost tempted to say unique. I think it's not as unique as I'm wanting to say, it does happen. But the level of insight that you had, you started to associate... Or not started, but you associated guilt with the Spirit, that's interesting. Was it just around sexual things, or was that a common occurrence within your life in general, just whenever you felt the Spirit, guilt accompanying it?

32:52 Leanne: I feel like it was mostly around my sexuality because... I love to feel the spirit in every other aspect of my life, I love to feel the spirit. And even in the times when I was very self-reflective and knew that I was behaving badly and knew that I was using my anxiety as an excuse or whatever, when I stopped myself in that moment, and changed, then reacted better and differently, I knew it was the Spirit helping me. And so I appreciated that, I love the spirit in my life that was helping me work on myself and helping me to self-reflect. But in the bedroom, I think it wasn't the Spirit making me feel guilty, but I thought it was.

33:42 DB: Mm-hmm. Thank you for that clarification. This is actually what I struggle with teenagers the most with. As I work with them to overcome their usage of pornography and out of control behaviors around sexual behaviors including masturbation, when we get them to a good place, they have clarity, the Lord is communicating to 'em the interventions that we use and us working with that teenager in a sexually healthy way helping them to understand their sexual health, help them understand their desires, they have clarity around it and they know that God is answering their prayers in this process. But inevitably, they will come in and say things like, "I can't do this 'cause it feels weird, I can't do this because I feel guilty." And then, we retrace the steps and we say, "You were feeling confirmation from the Lord, you were making progress. Where is this guilt coming from?" "I shouldn't feel this way, it's telling me the spirit isn't here." And so they start to have this discovery where what they were feeling wasn't entirely the spirit, it's what they thought was the spirit.

35:02 DB: And so this process you went through is so interesting to me because the way you described it is quite literally what I have to see others do is relearn. They have taught themselves so much fear around sexuality, so much guilt around sexuality that the spiritual experiences they have are the ones that are absent of the guilt, and fear, and pain. And so any time that guilt and fear are introduced, they connect that with removal of the Spirit, whereas actually, they've just trained themselves to feel guilty and fearful around this. And if they can get rid of that and invite the spirit back in, they could have this new discovery similar to what you're having in connecting with your husband, connecting with yourself. That is a very interesting thing where I've actually seen people do exactly that, where they've defined it as, "I've had to step away from these spiritual experiences and sometimes that's actually been, 'I can't go to church right now until I figure out exactly where the Lord wants me to go.'" Fortunately, in your case, you didn't have to do that. You were more of just reassessing, "What is the Lord trying to do here and where is he leading me?" That is very, very fascinating, very brave. It's a completely rewriting of your sexual health, of your approach to the gospel of things.

36:24 DB: And maybe I'm asking an obvious question but was that scary to go through that process of separating or did you know this was again, like your other experiences, you had to do it, you had to change it? What was going through your mind at the time regarding whether or not this was a risky process?

36:41 Leanne: It actually was really scary for me. In fact, when I went last year to Dr. Fife's Art of Desire retreat, I raised my hand on the first day and just started weeping. And I said, "I was just called to be in the Stake Relief Society presidency and I feel like such a fraud because in order for me to get to where I am today with my husband, I had to completely shut out the spirituality in my life." So I said, "Now, I'm trying to figure out how to get that back, and I feel like such a fraud to be in this calling, to have people think I'm something that I'm not because I'm still struggling to get that spirituality back." And that's when she explained to me, she said, "What are the fruits of the work that you and your husband have done in your physical life? What does that look like?" And I just said, "It's amazing, and beautiful, and celestial."

37:53 Leanne: And she said, "That is the fruit of the Spirit. Those are the fruits of the Spirit. Heavenly Father has been with you, you have had the spirit all along. And sometimes," she said, "we tend to put Heavenly Father into a box thinking that he can't handle our growth but that's exactly what He wants for us is our growth. He wants us to learn and grow. When we think that he can't handle our learning and growing, we put him into a little box." And that made a lot of sense to me. I feel like I'm gaining more spirituality I'm kind of in a fight with myself, within myself of deciding for myself within the church, like "the church," not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but the church. The church was always so black and white to me, things were either right or wrong, absolutely right, or absolutely wrong. And now, this journey is helping me to discover that Heavenly Father wants me to develop spiritually and wants me to receive my own revelation. And that's where I'm navigating right now, I'm just learning to navigate really embracing that Heavenly Father truly wants me to receive revelation for my life. Does it make sense?

39:23 DB: That sounds very, very spiritual. Yes, it makes absolute sense. And so when you continue to use this phrase, "I'm struggling to be spiritual," what I think I'm hearing you say is this cultural aspect of, what does it look like now, me functioning in this maybe grey area or this personal revelation which is the fruits of your labor here, as Jennifer was pointing out, which wonderful question. You are very spiritual, you are connecting with the Lord, and your husband. So at what point do you know if you are spiritual again based on your definition, what does that look like to you?

40:05 Leanne: Just talking in this moment, I think I've realized that I'm more spiritual than I was before. I think I'm actually living on a higher plane than I was before. I think before, I lived in a space of being so fearful of being right or wrong and wanting someone else, some earthly person to tell me if I'm right or wrong. And I think now, I'm living in a way that I'm seeking to know from Heavenly Father, if I'm right or wrong. And honestly, if I think about that, I think I'm living, like I said, on a higher spiritual plane than I was before.

40:52 DB: That's what I feel, I'm feeling that from you. This is the discovery, I call this the mature spirit. We've gone from how we identify and recognize the spirit as a child, which isn't wrong, this black and white, this feeling like you're being comforted with a blanket sunshine experience, to struggling with life, dealing with the complexities, dealing with the unique approaches that the Lord is directing you in, in your personal life. That's personal revelation, it takes a strong spiritual connection with the Lord to obtain that. The other way is more or less letting other people define our own righteousness. "Have I lived up to this expectation of my leader or of this cultural perception or not?" And that's a definition of our own spirituality, and in this experience, you're recognizing how important it is to have that personal and unique revelation from the Lord. That's what I'm hearing is saving your relationship with your husband.

41:57 Leanne: Mm-hmm. I think one of the reasons why this part of it has been so hard for me is because I was the only active member in my family during my high school years. I went to church by myself, all four years of my high school. And in my high school years, my home life was very, very, very challenging. And so I had young women leaders, and bishops, and seminary teachers, and home teachers who literally took me under their wing and really loved me and protected me during those hard years. And so I had such a appreciation for people in the church because there were people that really did truly come forward and loved me as a savior would. And so I think it was hard for me to feel like I was turning away from the church 'cause of all the good that the church has done for me in a time that was so difficult. But this conversation today has helped me a lot, actually, because I'm not turning away from the church. People in church are still wonderful, and do love others, but we're all just humans. And we just need to know that and we do our best. But ultimately, it comes down to the Savior, and God, and seeking what they would have us do.

43:44 DB: Leanne, your story is beautiful. And please, thank your husband for allowing this message to get out. I know it's gonna help a lot of people, and it's gonna reach a lot of people's hearts. And is it providing this example that we need to hear more of what it looks like in these difficult experiences within our relationships. It's not gonna look the same for everyone. Some are gonna sit next to their husband or their wife and explore and understand the pornography together, some may take a different approach. But the point is opening up, connecting, using this as an opportunity to connect not only with your spouse, but with the Lord. "What does it look like going forward, not letting other people define our relationship, not letting our past trauma define our relationship in an unhealthy way?" It's always gonna change us, our previous experiences are always gonna mold and shape who we are, but finding those as an opportunity to connect deeper and to trust and to bond. Thank you, Leanne, I really appreciate you coming on and I may wanna have you on again some other time. Unfortunately, we have to wrap it up and...

[music]

44:52 Leanne: Yeah.

44:53 DB: And I know this will help a lot of people out there, so thank you.

44:57 Leanne: Yeah, thank you so much for having me, I hope it does. I hope others can gain insight from our journey, so thank you very much for having me.

[music]

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Marriage and Sex after Divorce | Nicole and David Make Sex a Priority and Navigate Sexual Triggers

Nicole and David, both previously divorced, share their experiences in navigating sex in their marriage. How they address sexual triggers from their previous marriages and how to make sex a priority while raising young children.

Nicole and David have been life-long, active members of the LDS church. They were both previously married and sealed in the temple and did everything right in courting their first spouse and maintained appropriate boundaries while dating. However, intimacy was one of the main issues in their first marriage and neither of them wanted to risk that stumbling block in a second marriage. Through many open and honest conversations about expectations while dating each other, they decided they would be compatible in most areas, including intimacy. Over the last seven years of marriage, they have found that to be true. Intimacy is something that has kept them close together during different trials and struggles.

Unfortunately, there are times when struggles or triggers from their first marriages crop up. It may take them a while to identify it but when they do, they are able to draw close together again. One of the greatest things Nicole and David have learned is that they need to discover and learn about their own sexuality in order to be stronger sexual partners in their marriage.

Continue the improving intimacy discussion by joining the Improving Intimacy Facebook group.

Do you have a story to share about improving intimacy in your marriage?

I am looking for individuals and couples to interview for the "Improving Intimacy" podcast. Ideally, I would like couples to interview. But I understand scheduling can be difficult especially for those with children, so individuals are welcome to participate. This included those who are currently single/dating.

The ideal couple/individuals are those who are improving but still trying to figure it out, to those who feel they have mastered aspects of their relationship. Willing to be vulnerable, raw and explore the "messy" in the relationship. In other words, you don't have to be a "picture perfect" couple. If you feel your discovery is worth sharing and might help others, you're the right person.

Some topics I'm looking for, those who feel they have:

  1. learned how to navigate your sexual relationship.

  2. used this group to improve their marriage.

  3. learned how to navigate pornography with your spouse.

  4. learned how to navigate pornography with your children.

  5. used masturbation to improve your sexual intimacy.

  6. learned how to discuss sex, pornography and/or masturbation with children.

  7. learned how to make spouse a priority in the child raising years.

  8. overcome sexual trauma, whether that is from abuse, cultural shame, etc...

If there is a topic not listed, which you'd like to share, contact me at admin@danielaburgess.com.

If you are interested in an interview please schedule with me using the linked google calendar.

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Daniel Burgess Daniel Burgess

Love Your Sex Life | with Denita Bremer

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Denita Bremer is a Certified Life Coach and a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saint living with her husband and three kids in beautiful Colorado. She is on a mission to help Latter-day Saint wives love their sex lives and have the intimacy they always (or never) dreamed of. You can find her at denitabremer.com or over on Facebook or Instagram @DenitaBremerCoaching.

Continue the improving intimacy discussion by joining the Improving Intimacy Facebook group.

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Daniel Burgess Daniel Burgess

High Sex Drive and Sexual HealthMarriage and Sex after Divorce | Nicole and David Make Sex a Priority and Navigate Sexual Triggers How Liz Improved her Sexual Health and Marital Intimacy

Liz shares a recent experience that led her from "masturbation is a sin" to "masturbation is totally fine." Which shifted and improved everything about her sexual health and marital intimacy.

Continue the improving intimacy discussion by joining the Improving Intimacy Facebook group.

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Daniel Burgess Daniel Burgess

Daniel Burgess Shares his Journey in Reshaping Sexual Health within the LDS Community

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Daniel A. Burgess LMFT is in the hot seat in this episode as the author of Earthly Parents: And It Was Very Good: A Latter-day Saint’s Guide to Lovemaking (by the book!) asks the questions. Daniel shares his journey in reshaping sexual health within the LDS Community, and how faithful LDS can improve their sexual health and more effective strategies to eliminating undesired sexual behaviors, without shame or diminishing God's gift of sexual desire.

Continue the improving intimacy discussion by joining the Improving Intimacy Facebook group.

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Daniel Burgess Daniel Burgess

Empowering Women | Liz Glorioso on Being Authentic, Confident and Discovering your Sexual Identity

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Message from Liz: I know I can help you, because I have been you! I have gone through a divorce, one night stands, friend zoned, breakups, emotional abuse, hundreds of dates, long term and long distance relationships, you name it.. I have experienced it. There came a point when I said “enough is enough” and decided to DO something about the helpless feeling I had about my love life. 6 years, many mentors, self love courses and retreats, and tons of practice with men later, I am now known as a “Man Magnet”, I enjoy romantic relationships with men that I am crazy about, and feel like I am treated like a queen by the men in my life.

Now, I want to share everything I have learned with you! You deserve to feel like you are the most important person in this world and worthy of the man you desire. By combining my passion for coaching and loving relationships my mission is to help other strong, powerful women embrace their femininity to feel confident and sexy and attract and date men that they are excited about being in relationships with! I can’t wait to get started helping you transform your love life!

Here's the Link to the special offer mentioned on the podcast: https://www.lizglorioso.com/private-dating-coaching

Liz Glorioso Bio: Liz is the Personal Trainer for Your Life!!! Being a top notch coach for over 18 years, she takes her passion for loving relationships and helps other powerful women attract and date men that they are exited about being in relationships with. Having gone through a divorce, one night stands, friend zoned, breakups, emotional abuse, hundreds of dates, long term and distance relationships, Liz has the experience to help you with any dating or relationship experience you can go through. She is known as a Man Magnet, enjoys romantic relationships with Men that she is crazy about, has great relationships with all the men in her life, and is treated like a queen by everyone. She wants you to feel like you are the most important person in this world and worthy of the man you desire. She also strives to help woman recognize all the great men that are already there in their lives right now!!!

Continue the improving intimacy discussion by joining the Improving Intimacy Facebook group.

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Daniel Burgess Daniel Burgess

Depression and Anxiety in Marriage | Nich and Kelsey Learn to Establishing Healthy Boundaries and Communication

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Nich is a 28-year-old convert to the church and has been married to Kelsey for almost 2 years now. Father to the almost 1-year-old Evelynn. Having dealt with depression and ADHD for most of my life but not getting diagnosed and treatment until my mid-20's caused a lot of problems that were not approached until they were deeply ingrained. Overcoming those problems while also learning marriage and fatherhood has brought the issues to the forefront where the work has been done and continues to be done.

Kelsey is a 26-year-old from Provo, UT (born, raised, and still living there and an active member of the Church). She and Nich have been married just shy of two years and are the parents of an 11-month-old baby girl. She struggles with high stress and anxiety, which combined with Nich's depression and ADHD projects a steep learning curve in motherhood and wife-hood (wife-ing?). As the daughter of Dan and Julie, she has been following Dan's research and culture-changing methods for years and says "Dan may not be involved in the day-to-day of our relationship, but his ideas certainly are."

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0:00:05 Voice Over: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-day Saints strengthened their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.

0:00:28 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. Today, we have in studio my daughter and son-in-law, and they're gonna be talking about navigating communication while struggling with anxiety and depression. So we wanna welcome you here and appreciate you taking the time. They actually volunteered, they said they wanted to talk about this, so I appreciate them being vulnerable and willing to share their personal experiences about the difficulties and maybe even successes of dealing with anxiety and depression in the relationship and how you navigate those discussions. So let me turn it over to Kelsey and Nich and have you introduce yourself and tell us some more details about your struggles.

0:01:17 Kelsey: Well, we've been listening in on and learning about what my dad talks about through the groups that he does and stuff like that and we wanted to be a part of this if we could. I'm Kelsey, my husband is Nich and we have an 11th month old cute little girl. And...

0:01:43 Daniel: She is cute. [chuckle]

0:01:45 Kelsey: And we live in Utah in Provo, we're both active members of the Church.

0:01:52 Nich: We just renewed our temple recommends actually before we came out.

0:01:56 Kelsey: Yes, we did. We were visiting Dan, my dad, and my mom in California and so we get this opportunity to be together today.

0:02:06 Nich: Yeah.

0:02:07 Daniel: You wanna tell us more, Nich?

0:02:09 Nich: Yeah, I am a convert to the Church, grew up in a non-denominational house, and then when I was almost 20, so about eight years ago, I joined the Church and varying levels of activities since then but we actually met on the mission.

0:02:28 Kelsey: Yeah, we served our mission, missions, is it plural or singular?

0:02:33 Nich: Singular, yeah.

0:02:34 Kelsey: We served our mission in Seattle, Washington. So we were in the same MTC group, actually, so we started at the same time and then I got home five-and-a-half months before he did. So that's kind of a fun aspect of our relationship. We have the mission to share with each other. And Nich mentioned that he joined the Church about eight years ago. I'm 26, he's 28. So that's about where we are in life.

0:03:05 Daniel: Yes. So who's, I realize there's a bleed of emotions here, or not bleeding, but an overlap rather. Who's the one who struggles with anxiety and who's the one who struggles with depression?

0:03:20 Kelsey: I struggle with anxiety and Nich has the...

0:03:24 Nich: We could go both. We could say both.

0:03:26 Kelsey: Grand experience of having both.

0:03:27 Daniel: I, thank you, that's absolutely true but Nich is the one who struggles predominantly with depression and anxiety is Kelsey. So, you've been married for how long?

0:03:41 Nich: One month short of two years.

0:03:43 Kelsey: Yeah.

0:03:44 Nich: So almost two years.

0:03:45 Kelsey: One month short of two years.

0:03:45 Nich: So, mathematically our daughter was born eight days before our first anniversary.

0:03:51 Kelsey: Yup. [chuckle]

0:03:53 Daniel: So tell us about what it's been like? Now, let's start in your dating phase. So you guys knew each other on the mission. We don't necessarily need... You weren't dating on the mission, but I think you had exposure to each other's personalities there. But let's focus more on the dating phase. Did you, how did you navigate anxiety and depression? Was it something that was present in the dating phase?

0:04:20 Kelsey: Well, I think we had a sense of what each other kind of struggled with just from knowing each other on the mission. I knew that Nich had things he was working on... I mean, then elder Henry, it's weird to refer to him in that now, but I knew he had things he was working on, 'cause when we were on MTC together, he would get called down and go and have a session with his therapist there or what I thought was probably a therapist, I'd kind of fill in the blanks. So we knew a little bit that we struggled then. Actually on our first date, I remember saying some of my struggles and then saying, I cannot play therapist girlfriend, so I cannot be just, like if I'm gonna be in a relationship with you, it needs to be... I can't just play the emotional help card.

0:05:11 Daniel: So, Kelsey, let me pause there 'cause the audience doesn't know who you are and I understand why you said that, but hearing that for the first time, I think will sound a little cold. You wanna give it a little background on why you said on the first date you're not gonna play therapist girlfriend, do you mind sharing a little bit about that?

0:05:28 Kelsey: Yeah. So the reason why I said that is 'cause I'd had previous relationships where my boyfriend had some pretty deep struggles and I assigned myself the responsibility for his emotions. And I've always taken that as I was self-sacrificing and I'm helping and I need to be there for them but I would... All of their emotional struggles were suddenly my responsibility, and I think that can be really loving, but I also found that it was really tiring and that I put an unhealthy load on myself. Yeah, it was just an unhealthy amount of responsibility I assigned to myself, that I needed to be the one to help them navigate all of their emotional struggles.

0:06:25 Daniel: You put a 110% into your relationships. And a couple of the boyfriends that you had previously struggled with severe depression, and there was definitely that... I'm gonna use the term "co-dependency," That enmeshment, where you felt a lot of responsibility for their emotions. So, here, meeting Nich, recognizing he's very open about his depression, he made that clear. And you're pragmatic, so you don't mince your words, but it wasn't... I guess, let me ask. Nich, I wasn't there. Was that a shock to hear Kelsey say that?

0:07:00 Nich: I wouldn't say it was a shock. It was actually, in my opinion, quite refreshing. Because in my past, I had had people try to do that to me, and I think both Kelsey and I struggled with co-dependency in previous relationships. And having that honesty at that moment showed that this would be something more than just a nice, fun relationship. It would be something that would, actually, be a serious relationship that we wanted to have and that would help both of us with that, and not help each other in bad ways.

0:07:32 Kelsey: Yeah, we jumped into being pretty serious pretty quickly. And "serious" is a vague word, but we were okay with being really emotionally open really fast. Once he got home from his mission, we started going on dates. And I think part of that was just that we were really willing to be open with each other about the struggles that we had, and along with... See, you said that me saying right off the bat that I didn't wanna be a therapist girlfriend was cold, along with...

0:08:11 Daniel: Just the way you said it here. I just didn't want the audience...

0:08:13 Kelsey: Right, yes. [chuckle]

0:08:15 Daniel: "I don't know who you are, Nich, but I'm not gonna be your therapist girlfriend."

[chuckle]

0:08:18 Daniel: I just want the audience to know that that's not what went down.

0:08:21 Kelsey: No, no, there was some background with that, and I had a follow-up comment.

0:08:26 Daniel: "Great, you wanna go out to dinner now?"

[chuckle]

0:08:29 Kelsey: Oh, I said with that... 'Cause we continued to have a conversation about that, 'cause it was... We felt it was gonna be a big thing to navigate in our relationship. But part of the conversation then was that I didn't want to assign myself the responsibility for all of his emotional struggles in that unhealthy way that I had before. But at the same time, I told him that I wanted him to know that I wanted to hear about it when he was struggling, I didn't want him to feel like he was alone.

0:09:05 Daniel: That's a great, great clarification. You weren't abandoning him, you weren't saying, "I'm not gonna be a part of this." You were saying, "I wanna do this right. I'm gonna learn how to do this in a healthy way." And that's Evelyn, your daughter, in the background. Everybody can hear.

0:09:21 Kelsey: She's looking at us funny, 'cause we're wearing headphones. [chuckle]

0:09:25 Daniel: Yeah. And so, I think that was a very appropriate thing to do. And Nich, you were saying, that was refreshing. What was your experience like in previous relationships?

0:09:38 Nich: Not good, but that's because most of my relationships before that had happened in high school, which no one's had a great relationship in high school, except for the very rare people. And so, it felt a lot more mature and adult in that sense. And that's what made it so refreshing, was it didn't feel like I'd be dating someone that wasn't emotionally mature at all, but someone that was comfortable in who they were and what they actually wanted in their life and relationships at the time.

0:10:10 Daniel: So, why was it distracting or not helpful in your relationship for others to feel like they had to save you? Or... I don't wanna put words in your mouth. What was difficult about those relationships where they were taking that responsibility?

0:10:27 Nich: It was enabling. I felt...

0:10:29 Daniel: You recognize that?

0:10:30 Nich: Yeah. In retrospect, I recognize that. At the time, I'm an idiot and don't recognize it.

0:10:37 Daniel: I wouldn't say that, but it is hard to recognize that in the moment.

0:10:41 Nich: I personally was an idiot. If anyone else is feeling that, that's up to them to decide what that feels like. But really, looking back on it, it was super enabling, and it made it easy for me to subconsciously manipulate my way through the relationship in that sense, then.

0:11:00 Daniel: So, what did you do? You had a few dates, testing up the relationship. Tell us how it started to develop.

0:11:07 Kelsey: Well, at the risk of just sounding super Mormon-y, one of the reasons that we were okay with being so emotionally serious so fast is because we both felt really strongly in a spiritual way, the Spirit prompted us that we were meant to really dive into this relationship and really try to make it work. And we felt pretty soon into the relationship, probably less than a month, that, "This," in Nich's words, "could be it." Search could be over, we could make this work long-term and be together and get married and raise a family. And so, that was the guiding force, factor, in the beginning of our relationship, was just, we really wanted to dive in and follow what we felt like God would want us to do with each other and for each other.

0:12:01 Daniel: So, you set these healthy boundaries at the beginning, you felt the Spirit in your life, and I would call that authentic, super-Mormon-y. Gosh, I'm gonna struggle speaking today. I get what you're saying there, but it sounds very authentic. You both were praying about this, you're trying to figure it out. You liked each other, you established those healthy boundaries. So was it easy from there on out?

0:12:30 Kelsey: No, not at all.

0:12:32 Daniel: So what was the... Well, go ahead, go ahead.

0:12:35 Kelsey: I think when anybody's dating even if you're really emotionally mature and are open with each other, there's things that don't fully get opened up because you're dating... You're learning about each other, you don't just... You're not an open box right, right from the start. And in all honesty... We were engaged by Easter, so we started dating in after Christmas time, and then we were engaged by Easter, so it was pretty quick. So, obviously, we couldn't have known everything about each other's emotional struggles and how to navigate that. And then less than a year into marriage, add the responsibility of a baby into there. So no, it hasn't. It's definitely been bumpy, trying to navigate each other's way of thinking and emotional needs and that's, I guess, that's kind of what we wanna focus today.

0:13:27 Daniel: Yeah, so share with us the first time in your dating relationship this became an issue, issue meaning you're facing the realities of depression and anxiety and how it was affecting your relationship. So the first part, when did you experience your first difficulty? However you wanna define that, whether it was major or something that you consciously had to navigate, what was that like and how did you navigate it?

0:14:00 Kelsey: So I would say the first one was, and correct me if I'm wrong, Nich, but when we were... Because we knew that we could try to be pretty serious and that we were wanting to go towards getting engaged and getting married pretty early and actually Nich was having struggled feeling like he was accepted into my family because they didn't know him, right, they hadn't even met him. And all of a sudden it's like, I want you to meet Nich and we're probably gonna get married. And Nich had expressed to me once that growing up in a non-denominational Christian household, he had this idea that getting married to an LDS girl means being kept in this open arms LDS family and he felt a little bit judged, because my family was wary because we were getting together so quickly and they didn't even know who he was.

0:15:00 Kelsey: So I would say that was probably the first struggle that we had to navigate is him not feeling like he was immediately accepted into my supposedly in traditional LDS family, which I don't think we're very traditional at all. If, I don't know how much Dan has shared in the podcast before, but Dennis, my step dad, and so I have two sets of parents that are both wonderful, and so that's in and of itself, not very traditional. And Nich wasn't feeling very accepted by any of the four of them plus my sisters for a while there. And I think that's probably... That first time we had to navigate through.

0:15:36 Daniel: Yeah, and I'll speak from the perspective of the family and that was accepting, I think, we were pretty accepting, I think, we were very cautious because we didn't know Nich and we knew the struggles with depression and the tendency for you to date with individuals with depression. And I wanna pause there real quick, 'cause again, we have a variety of listeners and when we talk about anxiety and depression, I think it might be good to put a level on that. And so it's not just your common anxiety. Kelsey, you clarify, there's a high level, you're a high-functioning very anxious person. And Nich, how would you describe your depression?

0:16:20 Nich: I would say that I typically am very high functioning with it. I do still struggle with suicidal thoughts occasionally, and Kelsey I have talked about that, not as much as we probably should thinking about it, but I've attempted suicide in the past. It's made it that there are days that I just feel completely shut down but I can still get out of bed, I can still do things. So it's not to that level and it never has been, but it's a lot more emotionally taxing. And then you mix that with me being a pretty severe introvert where I can get socially tired listening to a podcast, that it makes it nearly impossible in those moments to want to reach out and talk to anyone because I feel like I'm already exhausted from my depression, just talking to someone's gonna make it even more tiring.

0:17:10 Daniel: Yes, yes and we were aware of that, and so we weren't actually at the time aware of how severe the depression was but we knew that we were being cautious and so rightfully so, you're absolutely correct. There was a concern for us and we didn't know Nich and it wasn't that we didn't wanna accept him in and it was just who is he and we were concerned. Were you getting pulled into another relationship that you felt like you to care and you were showing signs of maturity, way beyond your previous relationships. And I think that put a lot of ease in to Mom and I's side of it. Yeah, that we...

0:17:47 Kelsey: I think because of the other relationships, I right off the bat, recognized that there was the potential for me to want to become the what I had been named the therapist girlfriend, the caretaker girlfriend, the emotional support system for everything that depression, anxiety, and actually ADHD, all piles up together. And so we knew going into it, I didn't know the depth. And I think we're still learning the depth of what each other is struggling with emotionally but we knew going into it, that there would be... That we would need to be able to focus on those kind of differences and that we needed to do it while still remaining healthy, and that I wanted to make sure that I didn't simply... How do I word that? The word that just keeps coming to me is assigning unnecessary responsibility.

0:18:41 Daniel: That's huge. It is very hard to communicate that because in a relationship you care about each other. And the last thing you wanna see is the other person suffering, and that is difficult when somebody struggles with anxiety or depression, you wanna rescue them, that's a very natural... Or you wanna make it more comfortable or you wanna be... You want your love to be able to heal and uplift that person and it is hard to describe. And that's why we generally use the words or phrases setting healthy boundaries which we were seeing, and we were very impressed. And it sounds like, Nich, you were appreciating that. So what was one of these times, at the beginning of your relationship where you had to really focus on being mindful with these boundaries?

0:19:33 Kelsey: I'm remembering right after we got married, or not right, before we got married, actually, Nich was trying to navigate. He had done some school before his mission and he was trying to navigate what life choices he wanted to make now, the big life decisions. Like do I want to go to school so I wanna go to a trade school, do I wanna, how am I gonna start a career? And obviously with having, being majorly introverted, so the whole build up a network and make all these friends was not his cup of tea at all, that was an nope right out of that one, but he also didn't wanna just sit around and do nothing and stew, because that builds up anxiety, which depression and anxiety are such friends with that. You wanna talk more about how you were feeling then, 'cause that was a big thing?

0:20:20 Nich: Yeah, 'cause I made it so much worse, because it was... At the time I was 25, 26-ish, and I had done some school before and failed miserably at it, for a lot of mental health issues, and not knowing exactly what I wanted to do is my life but felt like, well, that's what you do after you graduate high school, you go to college. And so we had that, and I simply felt that there was nothing that I was qualified to do and that anything I did choose to do schooling-wise or anything would take several years, I wouldn't be able to support the family and all of that. And it was a huge drain and when we were talking about it, I don't know if Kelsey remembers this, but I remember well, 'cause it was something I was thinking, but thinking that one of the things that I really wanted to do was make that decision for me and not... Let Kelsey help, let her inform and have her opinion, but that if it wasn't something that I chose to do and wanted to do that I really wouldn't be happy in whatever choice I made in that.

0:21:36 Daniel: So you're recognizing that in your fear of the future, you didn't have clarity there, you didn't wanna fall into the habit of depending on Kelsey to guide through this, you had this desire to differentiate, is what we call it, and to make this decision on your own. That's an interesting experience because, with depression and setting healthy boundaries in this relationship, it's important to have that distinction, but there's also a risk that you're doing it all alone and not receiving help. Did you experience that?

0:22:10 Kelsey: The first thing that comes to mind with that is that I like to have a plan. It eases my anxiety. I like to know exactly what's gonna happen and how I'm supposed to be involved with it. So, while I knew that he needed to make this decision on his own when... And he had a job then that he didn't really like, he worked with a hotel chain, which is a fine hotel chain, but this particular management wasn't awesome, so he would come home angry and not satisfied with where he was at, and I would just want him to make a plan for how he could be more positive, how he could move in the direction that he wanted to. And I kinda wanted to be able to...

0:22:45 Daniel: Make Nich happy.

0:22:46 Kelsey: Make Nich happy and lay out steps that would make it work, and like the now steps were, okay, well, you can only change you. And I would give them all of the motivational talk about that and then what do we wanna do to make it so that you can move out, maybe get out of this job or see if there's opportunity for promotion or whatever it is. And I wanted there to be a plan that eases my anxiety. And because he was expressing that he wanted to make this decision on his own, I was thinking, well, then, am I not allowed to say anything? This is all up in the air. It's making my anxiety spike so much and I wanna help you, but I also know that your emotions are your responsibility but I don't like feeling this tension between us, because you haven't figured your life out. It's really hard and I think all recently married couples kind of experience that, because usually you're still finishing school, or you've just finished school and you're figuring out what kinds of things feel like your life.

0:23:43 Kelsey: And I was really worried about Nich, because he had told me that school was such a... Just a not good experience before his mission, and so we wanted to find something else, but me being someone who was like on the regular track, I went to high school, then went to BYU and graduated from BYU and so I was like, well, that doesn't make sense, you just do the thing so you can feel confident that you have the school you want. And I knew that he was gonna be a little less traditional with that and I didn't know how to help him navigate it, but I also wanted to help him not be so unsatisfied and hence depressed with the way that he was thinking, and so that was a huge... It still is kind of a big thing to navigate, even though he has more of a life plan now. I need to... My need for a plan makes it so that I bug him about it a lot, and that increases both of our anxiety, even though I'm trying to assuage mine.

0:24:37 Daniel: Not knowing what Nich's plan was, was spiking your anxiety.

0:24:40 Kelsey: Oh, a ton.

0:24:41 Daniel: So you're dealing with a handful of things there, wanting Nich to be happy and help him while also managing your own anxiety. You don't know what's happening tomorrow, a year from now, we're getting married and we need to figure this out. And so you're trying to nail it down and trying to figure out what's your part? A great example there. So what was your experience like, Nich, in that experience?

0:25:06 Nich: The big thing is, and Kelsey and I have talked about this several times since then, is that Kelsey needs to let me be happy in the way that I am happy. And that's really difficult, 'cause usually she gets so anxious about it 'cause it's like, but you need a plan that I like, which makes sense, you wanna plan that you like. That's what everyone wants in their life. But what we've had to navigate with that is that my way of going about and thinking about things isn't nearly as plan-oriented as hers is and it... That's difficult, but it's because I've set up a lot of plans in my past and they never came to fruition, and I felt really hurt by all of that and so I've been trying to figure out, okay, how do I set a goal and a plan without it actually not coming to fruition, therefore it really hurts.

0:26:05 Daniel: Which feeds into your depression and your sense of failure.

0:26:08 Nich: Bcause I'm like, "Well, I couldn't even accomplish that," and that's why I didn't wanna go to, why I was so apprehensive about school again and feeling that about a career was I've had all these major plans and failures in the past, that's just gonna repeat itself again because look at what's already happened, which getting married should have shown that not true to be... Not to be true, but...

0:26:32 Kelsey: Something that comes to mind too, with all of this, is not only do I like to have a plan. A huge difference between me and Nich is that I like to talk things out until they make sense and I like to keep saying more words, even if we're talking to...

0:26:50 Daniel: It's already getting overwhelming, isn't it?

0:26:52 Kelsey: Until it makes sense, because that's how I like to plan, I like to be on the same page, and I feel like the best way to do that is to talk it out, but the way that Nich thinks is more, I'm not gonna say anything until this whole thing is more formulated in my mind. And so I'm sitting here like, why is isn't he saying anything, and why can't we have a conversation about this and why is he keeping all this from me, and he needs to do this by himself, but I wanna be in on it, and... And my thoughts are that fast. Just little fireballs. I don't know what he's thinking, and I want to, and I want to contribute to what he's thinking, and there's been a lot of times when I'll ask a lot of questions and then Nich will say, Kelsey, I'm thinking about this, I don't want you to think, I'm not thinking about it at all, I am I'm just not ready to formulate it into a conversation.

0:27:43 Kelsey: And that stresses me out because I like talking things through, even when they don't make. Especially when they don't make sense to myself yet. I'll talk through something that I'm worried about till I'm blue in the face, and Nich will not say a word, and then I'll be like, "So what, so what are you thinking?" He's like, "A lot of things. I can't talk about it 'cause I'm thinking so many things you just laid a lot on me." So I'm a talker. He's a thinker, and I think out loud, and he thinks in his head. So those are very polarized when we... Especially if we're both feeling anxious. The more anxious I feel, the more I want to talk, the more anxious he feels, the less he wants to talk as the more he wants to just be like, just let me be by myself. I'm gonna put on noise canceling headphones and I don't hate you, but I want out.

0:28:31 Daniel: Let me go think, give me room to think. So what did you do? So here, you're noticing these difficulties, not easy, it's very messy. What did you do, how did you or have you learned to navigate that in a way that's supportive of each other, and I'm not necessarily suggesting that your anxiety is going down. For example, one thing you said is Nich will say, "I can't talk about this, I'm definitely thinking about it." But that would spike your... So on one hand he's communicating, he's saying, I need you to back off. Let me... Give me some space here, which is great communication, but stressful to you because it's not the information that supports you. And so have you two found a way to navigate?

0:29:23 Kelsey: Well, we even had to work up to... Like me being able to read that that's what he was saying 'cause sometimes he wouldn't actually say, "I can't do this right now. I can't have a conversation, but I am thinking about it." He would instead kinda just halt the conversation. He's continuing the conversation in his brain, but he would halt the conversation with me and either put on his ear buds or go into a different room, and I'm just like, "We weren't done, where are you going?" And he'd be like, "I was done with that conversation right now," and then I think that he just wants to drop it and he's being very uncaring and it's just, I'm saying all these things about how he's mad at me now, and he's annoyed. So we've had to work up to me knowing that what that means isn't, "I'm mad and you've offended me," but instead, "That's a lot to process. I'm thinking about it. I wanna shelve this conversation and start it up another time," and the more that I bring it up like, "Oh, have you thought about that yet?" Twenty minutes later, the more anxiety he has.

0:30:22 Kelsey: And so I just have to... Okay, I realize now, it's hard for me, but I have to say, okay, I probably shouldn't bring this up again until he brings it up, which for me needing a little bit is going into our bedroom and saying a prayer and then I'm fine. For him, it could be, it could be 20 minutes if he really wants to talk about it, right then but it can also be five days, and five days is a really long time for someone who wants to talk about things right now.

0:30:51 Daniel: Yes, it is.

0:30:51 Kelsey: And we've had to build up to a spot where I'm getting to be a little bit more okay with him needing to shelf it and that's hard. And then I'm sure I make it harder for him when I keep bringing it up over and over and over again.

0:31:10 Daniel: I appreciate what you said, though, you recognize that's what he needs and a mistake that a lot of couples make, and I'm sure his... It's a tendency, I don't... It's probably not fair to say it's a mistake, it's a very natural tendency to say, "Oh, Nich isn't talking to me. If he loved me, he would understand he needs to talk to me." And it becomes not about the depression, but the degree of love in the relationship, you start to assign degrees of love. Him walking away is an indicator he doesn't love me, and that's a dangerous place to be in, because it has very little to do with love when our minds are running wild, our depression's kicking in. Our anxiety's kicking in. So what I was hearing is you were consciously keeping it on the forefront of your mind, okay? He's not trying to hurt me, he's not falling out of love with me, he's not doing this because he hates me, he's struggling. And then you would go say a prayer to help manage your own anxiety. Is that successful every time? Do you do find going and praying, is the right balm for you?

0:32:23 Kelsey: When I'm in the right enough mindset to decide to go do that, yes. A lot of the times it's, "No, I wanna sit here and I wanna hash this out until it's done," and there can't be any other thing that happens.

0:32:35 Daniel: And that's how we got our taxes done. Oh, boy. Sometimes you do... You have to, right, because there's a deadline. I may wanna address that in a minute, here, but so, but specifically for you, what are some other ways maybe that you...

0:32:49 Kelsey: Well, and you say that it would have had to be on the forefront of my mind and I have had... That's a subconscious narrative all the time is this, "Well, if he's abandoning conversation, does that mean he doesn't actually care about how I feel? And he just is fed up with me and he wants to be just done with this." And then of course if I'm in a high anxiety mode I escalate done with this conversation, to done with me and like he wants to leave now, and I don't know when he's gonna come back, and that doesn't happen.

0:33:19 Daniel: Leaving is not the marriage. Out the door, take a walk, is that what you mean?

0:33:24 Kelsey: Right. Well, like I said, when I'm feeling really, really anxious sometimes I think... Well, for the sake convenience he probably wouldn't divorce me, but he wants to be gone. I would think he doesn't want to be in this right now. He wants an escape. And...

0:33:42 Daniel: You mean as an excuse? I don't wanna deal with this. I'm leaving.

0:33:47 Kelsey: Yeah, kind of. And when I say leaving, I realize that that can be vague, and I kinda joke that... We want to stay together. We've, I come from a family that has divorce and remarriage and from the beginning we were like, "We have some things to work through. We are going to have things to work through, but we wanna stay together." And so I know that I don't ever have to be afraid that he's literally going to want to leave as in divorce me, but I think he doesn't wanna be dealing with this right now, and that means he doesn't wanna be dealing with me and that can create a lot of...

0:34:22 Daniel: You internalize and it becomes part of your anxiety. So what do you do to get yourself out of that, that mindset?

0:34:30 Kelsey: Up until super recently, actually, I needed him to talk me out of it, I really craved for him to say, "No, that's not how I'm feeling. I don't wanna leave you, I'm overwhelmed by the situation, but it's not your fault and I'll work through it, just give me some time." And when he wouldn't say things like that, but I was just supposed to infer it, and I didn't realize that yet, I would be really scared that like, "He's fed up with me, he doesn't wanna be in this relationship, he wants an out," and so that's something that now that he has told me some of the things that go through his head in those high anxiety moments, I can kind of remind myself of that when a high anxiety moment comes back again that he doesn't need to say it every time. And like I said, up until recently, I wanted him to say it every time, every argument I wanted him to say what he was feeling and reassure me and I realized that that's not who he is and that my need for validation of my emotions was very high.

0:35:38 Kelsey: It still is, I'm working on it, but... And that I can remind myself of what he's told me in the past and trust what he's told me in the past without needing to hear it every single time he got angry or anxious or upset or whatever...

0:35:50 Daniel: Overwhelmed.

0:35:51 Kelsey: Title you want to call the emotion. Because I needed the validation every time and I'm currently working on being able to trust what he's already said and not needing a repeat on the validation every time.

0:36:05 Daniel: What you're describing there is, I think, such an important takeaway. I assure you that there are many listening to this who also struggle with anxiety, depression and what you just described is breaking a cycle. I liked the words you said, your need for validation... Validation is valid, alright, it's... And there's this very... There's this interesting place because we feel love, we feel connection when we have those feelings validated, but what you're experiencing is this escalation of depression and anxiety. And you just said exactly that. I knew I needed him to reassure me that he wasn't gonna leave, but then you said, I had to remember our previous conversations, and that's where I found comfort, and it's still hard.

0:37:03 Daniel: So there's this interesting place where your anxiety is driving the need for the validation versus the actual need for validation. And I wanna be careful with that, 'cause that's a very difficult place to differentiate and discern because when your anxiety and depression are kicking in, it's a concrete need, isn't it? It's like, tell me you're not leaving now, but you're recognizing, okay, no, no, no, no, this is my anxiety, I need to, I need to take responsibility, just as much as I told Nich he needs to take responsibility for his depression. That's impressive. And that is a very difficult place to be in.

0:37:41 Kelsey: And just as a follow-up to that, sometimes it'll even be while I'm trying to remind myself and trust the things that he's told me in the past, I'll actually say things like, "This is what I'm feeling from you, I'm worried about this. Would it be truthful of me if I said his is what you're thinking right now?" And then because I said the words and he didn't need to, 'cause he's not feeling put together enough to say it, he'll then be like, "Yes, that's right." And then I could reassure myself without needing him to do it, but I needed a little extra assurance of him confirming what I've trusted from him before, if that makes sense.

0:38:20 Daniel: Wonderful, yeah. Nich, anything to add to that?

0:38:24 Nich: I would say, for me, a lot of the time, the word that we've been using a lot recently is that we feel overwhelmed with anxiety or depression or just our emotions in general, and like Kelsey's been saying for her it's... She blasted at you. I would go beyond a shotgun to like a machine gun effect on it sometimes, versus so much in such quick succession, and terrible accuracy at the same time, because that's what you end up doing. Well, for me, it becomes my mind becomes foggier and foggier and foggier and that's why it becomes so difficult for me to want to reach out and actually cut through that and recognize that those moments when she's like, "This is what I'm thinking, this is what I'm feeling. Is that accurate?" And it's like, "Okay, the words are there. I can agree or disagree with that, and that can provide me some clarity and some guidance through that right now."

0:39:22 Nich: And so that's always been beneficial to me, but I also have to keep it at the front of my mind, some of those times where it's, okay, I only have half a sentence right now, I have to trust that if I begin that, that will cut through and provide my clarity for me and that I can actually start to talk and actually can break out of this right now, even though I feel absolutely terrified that I don't know where the sentence is ending and I don't wanna be Michael Scott from The Office, thank you.

0:39:52 Kelsey: Yeah, that's a huge thing too, is that when I'm feeling anxious, I obviously I want him to respond, I want him to tell me what he's thinking, and he doesn't like to unless he's done thinking, which can take days or more.

0:40:11 Daniel: Or more. Is this complete silence or is it just on that particular point or topic, or does it depend?

0:40:19 Nich: It's usually on that point or topic, I would say, because if we can, if we end up changing the topic to something more...

0:40:24 Kelsey: Light.

0:40:25 Nich: Light, yeah, less serious like, "Oh, what are we gonna do for dinner," which typically ends up, "I don't know, let's figure that out," or like, "Oh, okay," then we just take a break and then it's, "Hey, what's on TV," or something like that, that can break it out, because then it's a new direction, a new focus and I don't feel the pressure to respond.

0:40:50 Daniel: A distraction.

0:40:50 Nich: Yeah.

0:40:51 Kelsey: But when we are really, when... Well, maybe it's just me, when I'm really focused on a topic, because again, I want to hash it out all right then, and I'll say everything that's on my mind. And then if it's just like nothing, just like, not even crickets, I won't even say crickets, just nothing.

0:41:08 Daniel: The crickets are scared.

0:41:09 Kelsey: And then I feel like I've just left this big emotional blob and then a slight inquiry at the end and I'm getting nothing and then that spikes my anxiety. Because in those moments, it is complete silences. I don't wanna talk about any of what you've just said at all right now because it's all running through my head, and that can be hard to deal with, but again, I will say I have learned that I need to say what I need after I've expressed all that stuff. If I have the clarity to say it beforehand, I'll say, okay, I'm feeling a lot of emotions, this is what I need right now. If it's either listen or confirm if what I'm feeling is crazy or not, then I'll spill out everything, and then because I've already told him what result I need from him, he can respond. And sometimes when I'm not feeling clarity enough to do that, I will say all the stuff because I'm overwhelmed and then say, "Okay, now that I've said all of that I realized that what I need from you right now, is blank."

0:42:15 Kelsey: And then that gives us both something to focus on, and often I solve my own problem, but sometimes, often, he can help me solve it, now that I've given him something more narrow out of my big emotional balloon I just popped in his face.

0:42:29 Daniel: So what I like about that is you're communicating right now. I know you can't, so I'm putting it, obviously, in my words, but is how I'm gonna summarize it. It sounds like, Nich, you're overwhelmed, and I see that. I also have a need to verbalize what's going on here, and this is what I'll probably need afterwards. What do you do in those situations where you're recognizing she's communicating? I need to verbalize this, and maybe she doesn't always have to communicate that verbally or at least... Hey, heads up. I got to vocalize this, you know, we're now, it's two years in the marriage and you know, she needs to share her thoughts and you want to provide her that space to share. How do you go about doing that?

0:43:15 Nich: I think a lot of the time, recently, it usually happens at night, when we're just laying in bed before we attempt to sleep. And it helped recently that Kelsey even said that typically the thing that she needs is a hug or just to be held. And that if she doesn't tell me exactly what it is, that's probably a good default option for...

0:43:40 Daniel: That's good.

0:43:41 Nich: And the moments when she has been able to directly state that this is... Like, when she ends it on a question that was very implicitly, "I want an answer to this question," whether she verbalized that, you could kinda tell that, "Okay, this is actually a question question and not a thinking out loud question," which has been very hard to discern until we've been more open and talking about what that can look like and mean for us, I've... It's a lot easier for me to answer then because then I know what that expectation is, and it's harder for my mind to then run out of control, 'cause it's like, "Okay, there's a very clear question here that she wants," and there's still a space there as I collect my thoughts after she finishes and I wanna make sure that she is done, and then as I start to collect it, I become more okay with that half-finished idea that I feel like I have.

0:44:41 Daniel: What I like hearing here is, is you eliminate the guessing, you don't wanna become as a, Kelsey, as an anxious person, hyper-vigilant to Nich's behavior. And there's a danger there, because if he shuts down, he's going silent. You're becoming hyper-vigilant. It's like, "Okay, something's wrong with Nich, what's going on? I have to dig and I have to dig and I have to dig," you're recognizing, "Okay, I need to treat him like an adult and allow him to go through this but I am gonna vocalize what I need and Nich is gonna respond to that."

0:45:13 Daniel: I think this is really important and it's gonna lead into two other questions I have here. And the first one is, what would you say, I guess, both Nich and Kelsey, with anxiety and depression, for those who don't truly understand how difficult it is to live and function in a relationship with these two things, who might say, this is something that you use, as you're alluding to, a way to avoid a conversation, what's the difference there? And then the second one is, and you can answer whatever order you like, is now that you have a kid and you do have deadlines, how do you function with these two struggles, anxiety and depression, in meeting those deadlines and the needs of your child. 'Cause sometimes you can't, you can't put something off for a day or two. So, guide us in that, what do you do?

0:46:13 Kelsey: Well, to answer your second question, the first thing that comes to mind actually is that having a baby, actually, it provides... How Nich mentioned that sometimes we'll just switch to a lighter topic if it feels like it's getting too overwhelming, too heavy, because we're both too anxious, it's really easy to just then, "Baby needs attention, so we're not talking about this right now, because... " Or baby's fussy or she wants to eat or I'm still nursing her a few times a day so that actually provides me... "Okay, baby's hungry. We're gonna pause this conversation. I'm gonna go have a chance to go think in baby's room while I'm nursing her by myself."

0:46:57 Kelsey: So in some ways it eliminates my need to just keep hashing it out because there's an immediate need of a baby there, and so I can then focus my energy on her, whether that's anxious energy, it's usually anxious energy. I can focus that need on her and take a break. Not that I always recognize it as a break, sometimes it's more like... I wanted to have this conversation and this, this baby just needs to interrupt it. And so in the moment it might feel more stressful because there's another human being that needs me right now, other than myself and my husband but...

0:47:40 Kelsey: And when I think about it, and while I'm then taking care of the baby, it's okay. This is probably a needed break from that conversation. We could take a pause. I can take care of the baby for a little while and then maybe bring this up again later when we've had a chance to chill out. And that's an up and down emotional roller coaster, right, because when somebody else needs you, it's like it's fulfilling but at the same time, it's like... But I had something else I wanted to focus on right now. So it's, it's up and down definitely.

0:48:18 Daniel: Yeah, and what was the first question again? I'm trying to... For those who don't, haven't experienced this level of anxiety or depression or understand it and may say, life is tough, you've gotta still... Are you using it to... Is this a form of running away and not handling your responsibilities?

0:48:39 Nich: I was slightly thinking about that and I wanted clarification on the question. And it's not... You can use an excuse to run away from any responsibility that you find anyway.

0:48:49 Daniel: Absolutely.

0:48:50 Nich: And so I would say it can definitely appear like that. And when you're in that moment of depression, when that thought comes to mind, or anxiety, all it does is make it worse because now you're like, "Great. Now, I'm also not taking care of my child, I'm not doing my homework." And it just keeps building upon itself more and more, and that makes it so difficult. And that's one of the benefits to marrying Kelsey and having you as a father-in-law is that we've been able to recognize that more and in a healthy way rely upon each other to know that even if we're both feeling super overwhelmed, we've been able to develop a sense of trust with each other where it's, okay, we both need something right now, and we need to figure what that is.

0:49:45 Nich: And for... I can definitely see that people that haven't felt that and don't understand that how that could appear from the outside, but I would say just think about all the different excuses that you make in your life, for not doing the dishes or not giving your all at work, you're gonna find excuses in your life that are gonna be doing the same thing and they might be as deeply ingrained in your personality as depression or anxiety can be.

0:50:15 Daniel: Oh, that's a great, great point. Everybody has their own struggle with procrastinating in some form. Some may be great, like Kelsey and your mom who are great schedulers and use that as a tool for productivity in their life, but there are other aspects of your life that may be a type of procrastination. And so we're all struggling with our own... I really appreciate this conversation 'cause... And I have shared a lot with my audience, but for those who don't know, I by no means struggle with the anxiety or the depression that either of you do, but I definitely do shut down when I get overwhelmed, to a point that I don't even realize, and this came to light, and why I'm sharing this is 'cause it's a lot of what you're doing early in the marriage.

0:51:01 Daniel: When we started working out early in the morning, mornings are not good for me, at all, and so I didn't even realize how away I was in my mind and mom, my wife, your mother, would like to talk, and plan out in our drive to the gym in the morning at 5:00 AM, and it would become quickly overwhelming, and I would shut down more. And that was very difficult for her, and it was difficult for me and so becoming verbal. And one of the things that we did was we took the focus or potential offense off of each other. It's not because of you. What I would often do is... You know what, I am having a really... So I had to have it on the forefront of my mind, today is a really rough day. I don't think I slept well. This has nothing to do with you. I kinda need some space here as we drive. And that would be hard for her, because she... That was her time to talk, and there were mornings where she would say, "This is really hard for me." I thought it was going well, I thought it was going well, I didn't feel bad, but I wasn't talking, I wasn't engaging in the conversation, but she would be able to say that and just articulate it, and I would say, "Oh, I had no idea, thank you," and be able to engage in some dialogue right there and then to be able to meet it.

0:52:27 Daniel: But I didn't feel like I was responsible for her experience there, and vice versa. And that was a process that we had to grow through, and I think we've gotten pretty good at it and being able to recognize, I'm struggling, you're struggling, okay, that's all that's going on right now and that's it. But that still, that struggle still affects us emotionally, it's like, "Oh, my goodness, I don't want today to be unpredictable." So we start to learn how to navigate that. I need 10 minutes of rest, I'll go shut down, and then I'll come back out and engage in a way that is supportive for her and I'm hearing you two develop those skills and that's really impressive and it's very hard, very hard, 'cause it has to take... You have to learn how not to get offended or take it personal, but yet it's still emotional, and to be able to communicate that so it's very impressive that you two are navigating that.

0:53:26 Kelsey: Thank you.

0:53:27 Daniel: And I'm not in your daily life. Yeah, you said because of me, but I have very little involvement in your marriage.

0:53:35 Kelsey: No, but your ideas have a lot of involvement in our marriage.

0:53:39 Daniel: Thank you.

0:53:40 Kelsey: Another thing that I was thinking what you're saying that is sometimes you just need to verbalize something to connect, to check in, whatever it is. Something that we've started doing is because I've realized that when Nich gets really overwhelmed verbalizing is the last thing he wants to do.

0:53:57 Daniel: It's hard.

0:54:00 Kelsey: A lot of the time now he'll just... It kind of communicates... Well, let me tell you what it is first. He'll flash the I love you, the ASL sign, at me, or make the I love you sign with his hand and then touch my knee or something like that, and that's come to communicate that a lot's going on in my mind right now and I can't continue to talk about it at the moment, but I heard you and I love you and that just like... That simple little thing is just like I'm telling you I understand and that I can't do anything about it at the moment, but that I love you.

0:54:36 Daniel: That's brilliant. In the context of sex, that's safe words, right? But that's in our emotional relationship, I think that's huge, and I think Julie and I, my wife and I, have done similar things. I don't know if we're as conscious of that, but there are definitely things that we do to communicate, this is where I'm at, so that's brilliant, I really like that. I hope the audience understands the impact of that, so that's... That's good. And I think where that gets really successful. Well, it is a little bit more conscious in our relationship because one of the keys for that to be successful is that we don't use... For example, in your case, the I love you sign as a way to escape the conversation and never follow up for it, right. Where it becomes successful is when you can use it and trust that this will then be followed up later. It's not a way to permanently set it aside. And I think that's where couples get into trouble, and we don't have to hold each other to a specific time frame.

0:55:34 Daniel: Sometimes I will say, "Sweetheart, I need to talk to you. Let's put this off until tomorrow," and then, tomorrow comes along and, boy, it's a really bad day at work, or very emotional, it's like... But, I will communicate that with her and say, "It was really rough. Tell you what, let's try to do this tomorrow," but I'm following up eventually following up. It's not, "I'm putting you off." I know my limitations. So another great idea, I love it.

0:56:02 Nich: One of the things I was thinking about right now, was that through all of this, one of the biggest problems that we've encountered is in those anxiety or high depression moments and in arguments in general, you take things very personal from what the person says. And for me, one of my big problems throughout life and why Kelsey and I think I might be actually somewhat autistic, is my ability to express my thoughts has caused a huge amount of misunderstandings in my life, and I didn't have it pointed out until my mission that my tone of voice doesn't typically match what I'm actually trying to get across. And I had no idea, and that was a very weird moment on the mission to have my companion tell me that, and he was just making note of it, he wasn't angry with me, or anything. It was just like pointing that out.

0:56:53 Daniel: This isn't making sense, Nich, you said this, but it felt like this.

0:56:57 Nich: All he said was, your tone of voice really doesn't match what you're saying. And I had the most, what? And so like that, and my phrasing and wording is very particular from what it's been pointed out to me from people and so when I feel like I've expressed something and because she's feeling very anxious or confused, which makes Kelsey hard to actually communicate with, 'cause she's trying to figure it all out in her way, that what I've said very profound or very direct to the point and it was misunderstood. It feels very personal to me, 'cause it's like, but I spent all this time thinking about it and composing this and you're completely misunderstanding and that means you don't understand me.

0:57:51 Kelsey: One of the things that I think he mean with that is, if you can tell, Nich is bass, and this means that when he says something that's very direct, it can often sound cutting or short or he doesn't care, because it's just, "Well, this is how it is." The end.

0:58:10 Daniel: It's strong.

0:58:12 Kelsey: Yes, it's strong. And while that felt very, it might have felt like he was saying something consoling in his own mind because he took time to think about it and that that was his answer, to me it just felt like, well, that was disappointing and rude. And I'll say that, I'll say so, "What do you mean? That was rude. You didn't even think about what I said." And so, yes, while tone and voice and the word choice can play a lot into if you sound nice or consoling or you understand, something we've also had to learn, is that I don't want Nich to speak differently or sound like all rainbows and butterflies, just because I'm anxious, I want him to be himself, but I need to realize that his tone of voice and the way that he says things, even if it can, if I'm having a hard and overwhelming time, it can sound really cutting or dismissive.

0:59:11 Kelsey: What I need to realize is that I need to pay attention to the words and also kind of like fill in what I know about him, fill in that I know that he's not trying to dismiss me or tell me that I'm being dumb, but rather that he wants to help me through it, but he also doesn't want to dwell on things that don't need to be worried about, and that's where the directness is coming from, is that he wants to help me dismiss the things that I am focusing my anxious energy on that I don't need to, and that can sound really cutting in the moment. But then I realize he's actually being caring saying, you simply don't need to worry about that. But how it translates to me is I don't care. And...

1:00:03 Daniel: Do you have an example of that, 'cause I don't want the listeners... 'Cause the way that does sound, is it could sound controlling. I don't want you to think about this. You got every right to think about whatever you want. So what's a situation where that has occurred and how that's played out?

1:00:24 Nich: A lot of the time with our daughter.

1:00:26 Kelsey: Right. So there's been a lot of times when... I mean, I'll get really anxious if I put Evelyn down for a nap, 'cause she's still learning how to self-soothe and get herself snuggled up and asleep. I'll put her down for a nap and she's crying and I don't wanna leave her there crying, but I know that she'll get herself to sleep, because she's learning how to do that, and then I'll come out and I'm like, "She's crying again, I don't know why she won't let me put her down for a nap. She didn't even wanna snuggle. She likes you better than me. You're the favorite parent, and you can put her down for a nap and she doesn't cry... "

1:01:00 Kelsey: Your anxiety starts to spiral.

1:01:00 Kelsey: Yeah, and then I just think, "She hates me." She's 11 months old. Her memory is just so short term, she'll forget in two seconds that I put her down crying and she'll be happy 'cause she's asleep. But I come out saying, "This happens all the time. She hardly wanted to nurse, she didn't wanna snuggle me, she was just crying. I put it in her crib, but now I feel like I abandoned her." And those are the kind of moments when Nich is just like, one of his favorite phrases for those kind of moments for me is, "It is what it is right now," and those exact words.

1:01:31 Daniel: That's not quite... I like that, because it's not dismissive. He's acknowledging, it is what it is right now, but don't let me put words in your mouth, that don't allow that, the anxiety to escalate in a way that's distracting or hurtful in the situation.

1:01:48 Kelsey: The first few times that he said that I thought he was simply saying, "Shut up, you're overwhelming me, go away." But instead he was saying, "She'll be fine. You don't need to worry about this." So that's what I mean when I say that he'll say something that sounds really direct and cutting, but what he's really trying to say is, "You can tone down your anxiety, this is going to be fine," and I need to translate that in my brain that while I want him to, you know, maybe there's a part of me that wants him to go buy me chocolates and write me a love letter and make me feel better. Him saying it is what it is right now is like the emotional equivalent of that. He's saying, "You can calm down, it's going to be fine."

1:02:34 Daniel: So what I'd like, maybe one final thought is, and maybe you two can share, if there's one thing that you can, the listener can take away from this, what would it be? What would you tell your pre-married selves, what would you inform yourselves? But before you answer that, one thing I think is important to clarify here is some will be thinking who are struggling with spouses who struggle with depression, is that they get this feeling of they are who they are, and I just have to let them be. What I notice in your relationship is, yes, there's a degree of that. The fact is, you do struggle with depression and you struggle with anxiety and you both at times struggle with both, and there's this element of that's who they are, but you're not becoming your depression, you're not using that as an excuse, and you are finding opportunities like what you're just describing there is how to communicate better with each other, so you're incrementally trying to meet each other's needs without denying what you're experiencing. Is that fair to say?

1:03:43 Nich: Yes, I'd say so.

1:03:45 Daniel: Kelsey?

1:03:46 Kelsey: There was a lot of description there and I lost the question.

1:03:50 Daniel: You're not using this as an excuse, you're not just saying, I'm an anxious person, so you have to live with me, just who I am. You're recognizing that's what you both are struggling with, but there are opportunities in your lives where you're actually trying to meet the needs of the other person. Is that fair to say?

1:04:07 Kelsey: Yeah.

1:04:08 Daniel: It's not being used as an excuse. I will never change, and I can't learn how to communicate the way that you value. You both are actually trying to communicate in a way that each other values.

1:04:19 Kelsey: Yeah. Yeah.

1:04:22 Nich: Makes the marriage easier.

1:04:23 Kelsey: I would say that with that being said, a good takeaway that I would tell my pre-married self is one, that I don't need to feel like it's 100% my responsibility to care for my husband's emotions or to fix, I guess that's a better word, my husband's emotions if I feel like they're not happy. And with that, while I'm not responsible... While I'm not the sole responsible person for his emotions, I also, on the flip side, can't make him fully responsible for the way that I'm feeling. So that I need to take responsibility for me, and that will need to balance with helping and taking some responsibility for how he's feeling. But if I try to go 100% both ways, we're just both gonna be overwhelmed.

1:05:21 Daniel: I love that summary. Thank you. Nich, what about you?

1:05:26 Nich: If I would tell something to my pre-married self, it's that you don't have to be who they want you to be. With that, especially with depression and everything else that I felt with that, is that I needed to be able to accept who I am and what I have, with the depression and how my voice is and my ability to communicate, and that the more that I embrace that and try to learn and grow inside of that, that I will find people that are okay with that and who will be friends for a long time. And I will find someone that I'll get married to, despite all these things that most people are looking and going, "Oh, well, you're gonna need to fix that to actually be accepted in society and be accepted by someone."

1:06:24 Daniel: Thank you both. I think this is a great example of what it's like to live the gospel, live a relationship where you both love each other, and it's still messy. I think that's important for people to hear and learn how to navigate it and I hope that those listening will hear your example and find encouragement, even in the messy. And I know sometimes we get this ideal of what a eternal temple marriage relationship looks like, and that's not bad, but to be able to see it and on day-to-day basis, and I think you guys have provided a window into that. And so I appreciate your vulnerability, and sharing that with everyone else. Thank you.

1:07:06 Kelsey: Thanks, Dan.

1:07:06 Daniel: Thank you.

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Sexual Health | Evelyn's Experiences with Masturbation, Vaginismus, Anxiety and Marriage

This Post is broken out into two separate sections; Evelyn’s written first-hand account of her sexual health journey as a Latter-day Saint and the full transcript of Evelyn’s podcast interview.

Evelyn’s written first-hand account of her sexual health journey:

As a single Latter-day Saint woman struggling with anxiety and depression, my sexuality was not a priority in my life. After all, I was single, wasn’t I? As an active and devout member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, my responsibility as I saw it at the time was to avoid and ignore anything related to sex. Whatever my well-meaning youth leaders had intended, the message that I had received from them was that anything related to sex - discussion, acknowledgment, unintended feelings of arousal, etc. - was off-limits. The idea that this avoidance might be contributing to my mental health struggles never crossed my mind. In fact, at one point, when asked whether I had a healthy view of sexuality, my answer was “How should I know?” In my mind, even knowing the answer to a question like this was potentially inappropriate, because it would require thinking about sex.

Then came the challenge to make some goals in my life in all areas, including my sexuality. This made me uncomfortable. I have tried to do what is right throughout my life, and this felt like straying a little too close to the fence for me, so I started small. I would just think about my sexuality. That was all. For a few minutes, I would consider that this part of myself that I had isolated, ignored, and disconnected was, in fact, a legitimate part of me. Over time, this few minutes of thought led to study. I read books written by members of the Church and other Christian authors and considered what they had to say. I prayed about what I was reading and my own questions. I became increasingly certain that sexuality and desire are God-given and an important part of being whole and complete. As I came to this understanding, some truly unexpected things began to happen.

The first noticeable change was that I began to feel differently about certain TV shows. Many comedies use sex as a primary source of humor. Where these shows had not bothered me previously, I began to feel uncomfortable with the way that they were portraying sexuality. Using this gift from God for a cheap laugh began to affect me more. Studying and thinking and acknowledging my own sexuality made it feel more sacred to me, not less. I changed some of my media habits to reflect my new understanding. This led to a closer relationship with God. I also began to feel better about myself. I felt more comfortable in my own skin. I worried less about what others thought about me, and felt less need to hide behind a mask of whatever I thought others wanted to see. My symptoms of anxiety and depression began to decrease. This was a shock to me, but I realized that accepting my own sexuality and desires allowed me to stop fragmenting myself. I became more whole and more authentic. My relationships did not suffer for letting go of my carefully constructed mask. I became closer to my roommate as we had vulnerable discussions and talked - and sometimes laughed - together about our shared insecurities. Other relationships also improved. I began to serve others more and noticed their needs more easily. I felt more comfortable reaching out to comfort and help others in need.

Eventually, I decided to take another step forward in understanding my own sexuality and desires. I decided to explore masturbation. This was not a step that I came to lightly. When it was first suggested during a therapy session, I had a strong negative reaction. I couldn’t possibly do this! It was wrong. I felt anxiety and pressure. I felt torn between a desire to please someone I respected by agreeing to try but also fear that trying this would ruin my relationship with God. As a child, I had stumbled upon the ability to stimulate myself and had done this occasionally for some time before I even understood what it was. The shame I felt when I eventually realized that this was what people meant when they used the term “masturbation” was extreme. I spoke with a bishop about this behavior, and put it behind me as best I knew how, by locking away that part of myself as completely as I possibly could to avoid even entirely unintentional feelings of arousal. Now, the thought that I might choose masturbation on purpose frightened me. I thought about this deeply for some time. Eventually, I made a choice: I would not try masturbation. I shared this in my next session.

Once again, the results were unexpected. I didn’t consider this at the time, but this was the first real choice that I had ever made about my own sexuality. I had always attempted to do the right thing, but it was an effort to do what others told me to do. Never before had I exercised my agency around my sexuality. I had never owned a choice before in regards to this part of myself. I felt empowered. I felt strong. My fear and anxiety decreased, but not because of what I had chosen. They decreased simply because I had chosen. I realized then that I had previously allowed myself to be acted upon, rather than claiming my agency and making my choices. I began to pray and consider the possibility of making the choice to try to better understand and appreciate my own body, my sexuality, and my desire through masturbation. After a period of time, and with significant thought and prayer, I decided that this was something that I would do.

Not long after this, I met the man that I would marry. My experiences had increased my ability to interact and communicate authentically, and I was able to bring my whole self to this relationship in a way that I had not been able to in past relationships. I was able to communicate more honestly about my needs, with less fear. This is not to say that this was easy, or that I was fully prepared to enjoy the sexual relationship with my husband after marriage. I discovered that what my mind and heart believed, my body did not necessarily understand. Like many women, I had to deal with painful sex and difficulty staying in the present moment during intercourse without shame or fear. Gratefully, my husband is a kind and honest communicator who cares about my enjoyment and is patient with me. As we have talked and shared and supported each other, I have felt increased closeness and enjoyment in sex. I know that if I had not begun the process of understanding and appreciating my sexuality and my own body before we married, this process would have been far more difficult. I fear I would not even have been able to talk about it with my loving husband with honesty and awareness, which would have made our intimate experiences together more challenging and our conversations less effective.

I know that my journey is far from complete. I still often feel like I have a long way to go. I also would never presume that someone else should make the same choices I have. Every person needs to make their own decisions thoughtfully and prayerfully. However, I truly believe that my Heavenly Father cares about my relationships and is concerned with my experiences with sex. He doesn't want me to live in fear of my own sexuality, given to me by Him for righteous purposes. He wants me to recognize that this gift is a part of who I am. He wants me to enjoy sex with my husband and use it as an opportunity for us to grow closer together. He wants me to claim the gift of agency and make choices for myself, rather than acting out of fear. I am grateful for the experiences that I have had as I have sought to understand my sexuality. I know that they have helped me to develop my relationships - with myself, with my friends and family, and with God. I know also that they will impact the way that I teach my children about this topic. While I still appreciate the efforts of youth leaders who impacted my life in many ways for good, I want to better prepare my children to understand this powerful gift from their loving Father in Heaven. I hope that by teaching them differently than I was taught, they may be more prepared to fully enjoy and appreciate the blessing of their sexuality.

Full Franscript of Evelyn’s Podcast Interview:

0:00:05 Voice Over: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.

0:00:29 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. Today, we have Evelyn in the studio, who's gonna be talking about her experiences around improving her sexual health through masturbation. A sensitive topic, and I appreciate her coming in and being vulnerable with us today. Evelyn, will you tell us a little bit about yourself?

0:00:50 Evelyn: Sure. I am an active member of the church. I enjoy attending every week and with my family. Anything else you wanna know?

0:01:06 Daniel: Kids?

0:01:07 Evelyn: Kids, I do. I do have a child. I have a daughter.

0:01:13 Daniel: How long have you been married?

0:01:14 Evelyn: Been married about... A little more than two years.

0:01:17 Daniel: Two years. And how old are you?

0:01:20 Evelyn: I am 37.

0:01:21 Daniel: Thirty-seven. Wow.

0:01:23 Evelyn: Well, I did not get married real early.

0:01:24 Daniel: No. Well, out here in Silicon Valley, that's a pretty standard age right there.

0:01:30 Evelyn: That's true.

0:01:31 Daniel: But you married right, which is a great thing.

0:01:33 Evelyn: I did.

0:01:35 Daniel: So you're coming in here today, and we're gonna be talking about some pretty private and personal things. What's your motivation for doing this? What's your purpose for doing this?

0:01:49 Evelyn: I would say my purpose for doing this is that I feel like I've made a lot of progress through the different experiences that I've had. And some of them have been challenging, but I'm in definitely a better place than when I started, and I want to give other people the opportunity to hear about it so that maybe their journey could be a little bit easier.

0:02:14 Daniel: That's wonderful. Tell us some of those challenges that you're having.

0:02:19 Daniel: Well, I have struggled with anxiety for a lot of my life. I would say that when I was young, it was really challenging for me to kind of manage day-to-day. I had fairly crippling perfectionism and really was very, very worried about how other people perceived me, and that got in my way a lot. When I was in college, I hit a point where I realized that I needed help. I had great parents who helped me see that I needed some support, so I reached out and I got some help. And...

0:03:08 Daniel: What kind of help did you get?

0:03:10 Evelyn: I started attending therapy, and I also went on medication. So I was able to get better, but I kind of got to a point where I wasn't really making too much progress beyond...

0:03:26 Daniel: Did the medication help?

0:03:27 Evelyn: Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

0:03:29 Daniel: And this was in your college years?

0:03:32 Evelyn: Mm-hmm. Yes. The medication definitely helped, and so did the therapy. I was able to talk to a few different therapists, and it was really beneficial. But I guess that by the time I reached adulthood, I had learned how to manage a lot. I had learned a lot of coping skills which were very beneficial. They certainly made a difference in the quality of my life. I was able to calm myself down. I was able to kind of recognize when I might be having an anxiety reaction that was above and beyond the legitimate need based on what was going on. So I developed a lot of those skills, and I've made a lot of progress, but I would still slide back periodically. And I still realized that I hadn't dealt with some of the root issues.

0:04:35 Daniel: Now, we're not talking about, "I'm nervous." We're talking about anxiety that was paralyzing.

0:04:43 Evelyn: Yes. Yeah. I was diagnosed with an anxiety disorder, and it definitely was making it so that there were a lot of things that I couldn't do. Interacting with people was particularly difficult.

0:05:00 Daniel: Let's talk a little bit more about that. Not only interacting with people, you're going into a profession. You're working. You're living on your own. You're high-functioning. But this was getting in the way, not just of interacting with people, but your job too?

0:05:17 Evelyn: Well, I wouldn't say that it was getting in the way of my job performance. It was definitely getting in the way of my job enjoyment.

0:05:24 Daniel: Ah, yes. And that's an important clarification right there. So how... If you can put it on a scale, it sounds like it was growing and becoming increasingly worse, and you'd been on medication and during your... Maybe your 20s is what we're talking about now. You're out of college, and it's increasingly getting worse. How bad was it? Tell us a little bit more about that.

0:05:52 Evelyn: It depended, I would say, on the time. I would have times that I was... Felt pretty in control of how things were going, but then I would have other times when things would slide backward and I would just not want to do anything. And I would... I would say, externally, everything looked fine.

0:06:11 Daniel: Yes.

0:06:12 Evelyn: From an outsider's perspective...

0:06:13 Daniel: You're good with that.

0:06:15 Evelyn: Yes, I am. [chuckle]

0:06:17 Daniel: As most... As a lot of people who struggle with anxiety are and who are high-functioning, people don't realize how bad they're suffering inside. And that was the case with you.

0:06:28 Evelyn: Yeah.

0:06:29 Daniel: Yeah.

0:06:30 Evelyn: Yeah. But it became... Yeah, it was really very, very difficult on a day-to-day basis to just carry out the things that I needed to do, to make myself do that. It cost me a lot to go through a day and to make sure that no one knew how I was feeling about everything that I had to do, and just the overwhelming... Sometimes, it was... Sometimes it just felt incredibly devastating. I remember explaining it to my mother one time how I would feel about the future and about how things were going. And she said, "Wow, that sounds like the dementors in Harry Potter."

0:07:11 Daniel: Wow.

0:07:11 Evelyn: They just suck the joy out of everything.

0:07:12 Daniel: Yes. What a perfect visual. Absolutely. And I think that's when I first met you was you were at that point. Dementors had sucked everything out of you.

0:07:24 Evelyn: Yup.

0:07:25 Daniel: You made a particularly interesting request, though, when you came and saw me. So this is much later, so in your mid-30s. So I think that's important. So for about 15 years since college.

0:07:40 Evelyn: Yeah.

0:07:41 Daniel: Were you on medication that whole time?

0:07:44 Evelyn: Not the whole time, but I would say off and on.

0:07:47 Daniel: Okay.

0:07:47 Evelyn: A reasonable amount of the time.

0:07:49 Daniel: And when you were on medication, it seemed like it was manageable?

0:07:53 Evelyn: Mm-hmm.

0:07:55 Daniel: And by the time you came and sought help from me, you were... If I remember right, you were not on medication.

0:08:04 Evelyn: Yeah, I did try to not go on medication for a while.

0:08:07 Daniel: That was a particular request you actually had.

0:08:09 Evelyn: Mm-hmm.

0:08:10 Daniel: You said, "I wanna try to do this without medication."

0:08:12 Evelyn: Yes. I ultimately did go back on for some help with sleeping, but...

0:08:19 Daniel: But for anxiety?

0:08:21 Evelyn: Yeah, for anxiety I think I've made a lot of progress.

0:08:23 Daniel: Yes.

0:08:24 Evelyn: It still helps, but the biggest reason that I take some now is because it helps with sleep.

0:08:30 Daniel: Yes. Well, and you're a new mother too, isn't it so?

0:08:33 Evelyn: Well, that's true. Yes.

0:08:35 Daniel: A lot of stress is going on. In fact, to that point, with all the stresses that you have, you've been married in the last two years.

0:08:42 Evelyn: Mm-hmm.

0:08:42 Daniel: You have a baby in your late 30s.

0:08:47 Evelyn: Yep.

0:08:47 Daniel: Later 30s. All these life changes. You became accustomed to living alone, or at least independently.

0:08:58 Evelyn: Yes. Yes.

0:09:00 Daniel: And so you have a lot of stresses in your life in your... I mean, yes, medication for sleeping, which, gosh, I'm on right now. Not to minimize at all what you're experiencing there. But even with all these major life changes, how would you say you're coping?

0:09:16 Evelyn: Oh, much better.

0:09:18 Daniel: Much better.

0:09:18 Evelyn: Much better than I was.

0:09:20 Daniel: So you eventually, in your mid-30s, you sought out help again. Had you see seen a therapist since college?

0:09:28 Evelyn: Yes.

0:09:29 Daniel: Yes, you have?

0:09:30 Evelyn: Mm-hmm.

0:09:30 Daniel: And I'm assuming it was somewhat helpful because you're coming again.

0:09:33 Evelyn: Yeah. Absolutely.

0:09:35 Daniel: And so you're in a new area, you're seeking some support here. Tell us about that. What was that experience like? You're having to reach out. Give me some emotions.

0:09:45 Evelyn: Sure. I would say that when I've gone to see a therapist, it has helped. And so I would... I decided that when I reached a point in a new area, I needed to find someone to help me out because with the moving to a new place, it kind of pushed me backward to the point where I really wasn't coping well at all. So I decided that I needed to find somebody, and luckily, I'd met you.

0:10:12 Daniel: Okay.

0:10:12 Evelyn: So I asked you, and we started talking, and that was really helpful.

0:10:21 Daniel: Well, it was interesting at the beginning. We were doing... So one of the first things we did was we tried to explore what's working. And we repeat those and we try to find ways to enhance that or build on the skills that you already knew how to do and do very well. In fact, I do recall a lot that you were, "Yep, familiar with this. I know how to do this." But what we were experiencing, yes, some of the anxiety was being manageable, but it wasn't getting to a point where you're okay. And correct me if I'm remembering incorrectly, it wasn't... We weren't making the progress that I think you were hoping for.

0:11:02 Evelyn: Well, I think I kind of got to the point where I thought this is as good as it's gonna get.

0:11:08 Daniel: Yes, yes.

0:11:10 Evelyn: And I guess this is life. And that's okay. I mean, it's not too bad. I'll just have to do my best and take a day at a time.

0:11:16 Daniel: Well, hold on a second. When you say, "It's not too bad," I think we need to put that in context. You've lived a life of anxiety, so you're not too bad. And yeah, don't let me misspeak. I don't wanna put words in your mouth. But I think... To some degree, I think you're minimizing it. You were struggling.

0:11:35 Evelyn: Well, yes. I was struggling, but I guess I figured that we reached the point where I had gotten before, which was manageable.

0:11:45 Daniel: Manageable. Okay.

0:11:47 Evelyn: And figured that this was... What I was going to do was I was going to kind of do a cycle where I could manage it, and then maybe changes in life or something would happen that would increase the stress, and then I would go downhill, and then I would get some help, and then I would bring it back to manageable. And that would kind of be life. But that's as good as I could hope for, so I should make the best of it.

0:12:13 Daniel: So what happened from there? Why didn't we just quit, say we succeeded and moved on?

0:12:20 Evelyn: Well, that's a good question. I don't know. I think that you brought up some interesting points that I hadn't considered before, and at first I thought that they didn't have anything to do with me.

0:12:34 Daniel: Tell us about those points. What points were we bringing up?

0:12:37 Evelyn: Well, I remember you bringing up, at one point, just... Well, how do you feel about your sexual health? And I thought, "How should I know?" I think that's what I said. "How should I know?" I was single and being an active temple-attending member of the church. That meant that I didn't really have a sexual life. So it seemed like something that was disconnected.

0:13:11 Daniel: It's interesting even now, when you recall this, and you're a lot more informed now, you went immediately to the sexual experiences. I'm not married.

0:13:22 Evelyn: Right.

0:13:23 Daniel: And so was it even on the forefront of your mind, sexual health, 'cause that was the question that was what was being explored, was much more than just physical intimacy with somebody else. And so even now when you're talking about it goes, you're recalling, right?

0:13:40 Evelyn: Oh, yeah. I'm remembering that I didn't really see any other sides to the issue.

0:13:46 Daniel: So what was that experience like, coming from your therapist, even a male therapist, what was your experience hearing it come out as even something to be suggested or thought about. And as again, as a male therapist, any thoughts or feelings around all that?

0:14:03 Evelyn: I would say that initially I rejected it, and put it aside as something that didn't really apply to me, but it did plant some seeds of thought that I returned to on my own.

0:14:21 Daniel: What prompted you to return to it? So that seed was planted.

0:14:27 Evelyn: Well, I think one thing that prompted me to return to it was that I think in a session, I actually brought up the idea that I think that this is as good as it's gonna get. This is kind of what I live with, this is... This is how it's going to go, this is how my life's gonna go. And you said I don't buy that. And I thought, well, maybe you're wrong. [laughter]

0:14:56 Daniel: You always told me you like forwardness, directness. So, yes, I thought there was much more potential there I didn't think we had to suffer with just manageable. So where did that take your thoughts?

0:15:16 Evelyn: Well, I went home and I thought about it and I decided I wanted to give it a try. I guess if you always do what you've always done then you're gonna always get what you've always gotten. So...

0:15:30 Daniel: Give what a try?

0:15:33 Evelyn: Exploring other ideas, sexual health was one of them. But you did kind of bring up this idea of wholeness.

0:15:41 Daniel: Yes.

0:15:43 Evelyn: And that there's just so many sides of me as a person and to make some goals in all these different areas.

0:15:51 Daniel: Yep, I think so, good memory on that. That's definitely what we do is try to approach it from a wholeness. All too often we get focused on, "Okay, I have anxiety. So just give me the skills and techniques to manage it."

0:16:07 Evelyn: Exactly.

0:16:08 Daniel: But if there's a possibility to... I'm not gonna say eliminate, I don't think we eliminate anxiety. Everybody experiences anxiety every day at some sort of level, but get to a point where you can actually be proactive about it, or thrive or get it to a point where the management is much, much less, and so we have to step outside of just the managing anxiety aspect, we have to focus on the mental, the spiritual, the physical side of this. And so I think I, well, I'm remembering this because it's a standard procedure I do, I think I even recommended, let's get your blood work done, let's get you... Make sure everything's fine physically, biologically, but this has been around for a long time, and so, this isn't a new... It wasn't like you're coming into a new biological stage of life, although that could have been possible, but we wanted to rule those things out. And so, one thing that you've never explored was that sexual aspect, is my sexual health good and can this be part of the problem?

0:17:15 Evelyn: That one was brand new, and some of the other ones were not brand new. Thinking about them altogether was a little bit new, but I'd certainly worked on myself spiritually, I'd worked on myself mentally, I had focused on exercise, and eating right and I mean, all of those things were things that I had done before. Looking at it as a holistic perspective was a little bit different, but they weren't different ideas. It was the sexual health piece that was the different piece, and it felt like it didn't fit. But now when I look back, it feels like... It feels odd to assume that something that's so much an important part of myself would not be a puzzle piece whereas everything else would be, but it was the only piece of it that I had never explored before.

0:18:06 Daniel: Looking back now, what do you think was making it feel like it didn't fit?

0:18:12 Evelyn: I would say that I had worked pretty hard to make it not a part of myself.

0:18:21 Daniel: Yes.

0:18:22 Evelyn: And that was in an effort to be as good as possible.

0:18:33 Daniel: Tell us more about that, what does that mean? So first of all, the fact that you're saying you worked as hard as you could for it not be a part of... I feel like there's some insinuation going on there. Was this something that you may have or tempted to be struggling with or tempted...

0:18:49 Evelyn: I would say that I... Well, to go back when I was young, I discovered that I could stimulate myself.

0:19:00 Daniel: How young are we talking about?

0:19:00 Evelyn: Oh, maybe between 10 and 12.

0:19:02 Daniel: Okay. Entering your teen years, yep, yep.

0:19:05 Evelyn: So pretty young, accidentally... And explored it a little bit and...

0:19:13 Daniel: Talking about masturbation?

0:19:14 Evelyn: Yes. Didn't really have any idea of what I was doing, honestly. I went to youth meetings and things where they would tell you that you should not masturbate. And I didn't have any idea that these things were connected at all.

0:19:37 Daniel: Oh, so in those youth meetings, you weren't realizing that's what was happening?

0:19:40 Evelyn: Correct. I had no idea what masturbation really was.

0:19:43 Daniel: You were just hearing this terminology and you were like, "Oh, okay, I'm not gonna do this."

0:19:46 Evelyn: Yeah, absolutely not. It was clearly a bad thing, I was not gonna do it.

0:19:50 Daniel: So at what point did you realize what you were doing between 10 and 12 was actually what they were saying don't do?

0:19:57 Evelyn: Well, I did it occasionally.

0:20:01 Daniel: In your teen years?

0:20:02 Evelyn: In my teen years. It wasn't actually until I picked up a teen magazine that was sitting on a table at the library sometime around the age of maybe 14-15, something like that, that the magazine actually gave me a clear enough definition of masturbation that I was able to make the connection.

0:20:22 Daniel: Interesting. So, what were you experiencing when you had that connection?

0:20:26 Evelyn: I was devastated, I was completely devastated. And...

0:20:31 Daniel: About how old were you at this time?

0:20:34 Evelyn: I would say maybe 15.

0:20:37 Speaker 1: 15. Pretty young.

0:20:39 Evelyn: So I just... I felt incredibly ashamed and that I had managed to do something so terrible without even realizing that I was doing it.

0:20:50 Daniel: So how did you respond to that?

0:20:55 Evelyn: I think that's when I started to try to avoid any...

0:21:02 Daniel: It became an active suppressing.

0:21:06 Evelyn: Yes, yeah, that was when I kind of began the process of trying to avoid any accidental, 'cause I did my best to avoid any masturbation, but I also tried to avoid any reading something that might accidentally make my mind go that direction. I mean, I was really working hard.

0:21:30 Daniel: Totally shut it off?

0:21:32 Evelyn: Mm-hmm. Yes.

0:21:34 Daniel: And in all intents and purposes, that's really what the ideal was communicated in these youth meetings, don't stim... I mean, for the strength of youth, right?

0:21:40 Evelyn: Yes.

0:21:40 Daniel: And so you've spent from 15 on when you discovered, made the connection with this magazine, and your behavior and these youth meetings. Well, was there any kind of formal repentance or did you discuss this with leadership?

0:21:57 Evelyn: Not at that point, but I did about when I was a freshman in college. So about the age of 17.

0:22:04 Daniel: Is that because you were struggling with it or...

0:22:06 Evelyn: Yeah, I would say I hadn't been able to 100% cut it off, so I didn't...

0:22:12 Daniel: But this wasn't like a daily thing for you, it was like...

0:22:15 Evelyn: No.

0:22:16 Daniel: Once in a blue moon kind of.

0:22:16 Evelyn: It was occasional. Yeah. It was occasional.

0:22:18 Daniel: Wanting to clear the air with the bishop.

0:22:21 Evelyn: Or, and sometimes it wasn't even physical stimulation, maybe it was just mental. My thoughts might go a different direction, but I would find myself feeling stimulated so it wasn't...

0:22:30 Daniel: So when you say you worked hard.

0:22:32 Evelyn: I did.

0:22:32 Daniel: Not only your sexual arousal but your thoughts, your feelings, all around it.

0:22:37 Evelyn: Well I... Yeah, I felt that sometimes I would have thoughts that would lead me toward arousal, and I would feel some physical response, thoughts that I was having or something that I might read or anything like that. And so I...

0:22:54 Daniel: So you're a completely different person today because I remember when you first would even start to... I don't even think you would say the word masturbation.

0:23:03 Evelyn: No, I didn't say the word masturbation for a long time.

0:23:06 Daniel: Even I think maybe eventually you did with me. I don't remember exactly the timeline, but even your mind going there, there was a clear anxiety being provoked.

0:23:17 Evelyn: Oh, very much so, yes.

0:23:19 Daniel: And did you notice that at the time or was that even something that you were physically aware that was happening? You literally really physically changed.

0:23:28 Evelyn: Yeah, I think I'm aware of it. Yeah.

0:23:31 Daniel: Prior to 15, I realize we're going back 15, 20 years. Do you feel like before you made this discovery, that you were masturbating, that your anxiety was as severe?

0:23:48 Evelyn: It was not. However, I couldn't necessarily say whether that was because of this discovery.

0:23:55 Daniel: Absolutely, and I wanna be careful with that...

0:23:57 Evelyn: 'Cause I think it...

0:24:00 Daniel: Again, 15-20 years ago, we don't know.

0:24:00 Evelyn: Right. I think it grew for who knows how many different factors.

0:24:05 Daniel: As you're entering puberty too, that's... Or you're well into puberty. Yeah. So all these feelings are coming up which could add to... So yeah, clear, I'm not making any... I can't go there and say that was the cause of it. But now you're in your 20s, you're in your 30s, you've spent 15-20 years going on and off medication, managing. Now we start to explore this. And one thing I really appreciated about you is usually I have a... My clients fall into one of maybe three different categories: One, when we explore... I have seven principles that I explore and that includes mental health, spiritual health, physical health, sexual health, so forth. And usually when we get to the sexual health part, especially with single adults, I get one of maybe three different reactions, one is, oh, no, they never even... Even just mentioning, how is your sexual health? It's very rare, but sometimes I get them... They'll never even come back.

0:25:07 Daniel: So I'll get some people who are like, okay, whatever it takes, and then we get people that I think are more like you. I need to think about this. And I really, really value that, because that's part of therapy is getting you to be that individual and you have no problem with differentiating from other people, and so that didn't surprise me, but the thought process, both spiritual and mental, that you put into it was impressive, and I admired, I fully admired how you approach this. You didn't just say, "Whatever you say, Dan. Let's figure this out," and for you as somebody who wanted to get rid of your anxiety, you didn't just jump on and say... So tell us... I'll stop talking there, but you tell us what that process was like from your end. That's what I observed.

0:26:00 Evelyn: Okay, sure. Well, after I kind of went through college, when I didn't see a bishop and talked through everything and then no more, I'd really cut off that part of myself as much as possible. No, sexuality is not really a part of who I am. I need to focus on the spiritual, I need to focus on the mental, I can focus on the physical. Those are all okay, but this other part is something that I'm just saving for until after I'm married. Then we came to the point where you brought it up and asked me to make a goal and I started very small.

0:26:45 Daniel: Yes.

0:26:46 Evelyn: I said I will think about it. I will think about sex for a few minutes. I feel comfortable going that far, but thinking about it started me wondering if there might be something that was missing in my life, and I still didn't connect it to anxiety, not really, but I thought as long as I was working on everything else, maybe I would continue to work in this area as well, and...

0:27:22 Daniel: What started to happen? So we're talking about, and I put a timeline in just to give an appreciation, it's not that it was fast or slow or anything like that, but we're talking about months. You were taking...

0:27:38 Evelyn: It started to happen, yeah.

0:27:40 Daniel: Yeah, so what was the process? You started...

0:27:42 Evelyn: Okay.

0:27:42 Daniel: So let's explain the thinking about sex a little bit more there. The goal there, do you recall what it was? I'm not, I don't mean to put you on the spot.

0:27:52 Evelyn: Do I recall what it was? I remember that there was a goal in every area, and that the one that I felt like I could do was I would think about this issue.

0:28:00 Daniel: Being aware of your own sexuality, what are your own desires and thoughts, getting... So the goal was to get in tune, in connection with yourself, your sexual identity, what does that look like? And what does that feel like? And so you started to explore that a little bit more.

0:28:19 Evelyn: Yeah, and it was not fast at, it was not a fast process for me, but what I started to notice was that beginning to recognize this piece of myself changed. The first thing I think I noticed it changing was my interactions with other people. I started to feel more open and able to communicate with people. I had a roommate, we'd lived together for some time and we got along reasonably well, but we were just roommates. I mean, kind of ships passing in the night, and one day I started talking with her and our relationship began to grow and to change. And...

0:29:13 Daniel: You talking, you mean just casual conversations.

0:29:16 Evelyn: At first, yeah, but then eventually, we started talking about deeper things, and discovering that we had more in common than we thought.

0:29:26 Daniel: I think it's important, I think you, we alluded to it with the anxiety but part of this, I think the audience should understand is how much of an introvert you are.

0:29:35 Evelyn: Oh, very.

0:29:36 Daniel: And so just talking with your roommate, you liked your roommate, this had nothing to do with personalities or anything, just you're on probably the higher end of being an introvert than most introverts. And so just having this conversation, how do you feel that was connected to your exploring your sexuality?

0:29:55 Evelyn: Well, at the time, I didn't understand it at all, it didn't make sense to me, it was just an observation. So if we're kind of going on the journey, at the time I was noticing that this was happening more and more, but I wasn't clear how it connected.

0:30:18 Daniel: So at this time, you're not masturbating, you're...

0:30:20 Evelyn: No, just thinking.

0:30:20 Daniel: Just explain... What is my sexual identity. Let's just call it that, and doing that, opening that up was starting to allow you to open up to other people.

0:30:37 Evelyn: If I'm going to reflect from a position of having travelled a long way from where I was.

0:30:44 Daniel: Yes.

0:30:45 Evelyn: I think it has something to do with that wholeness piece. There was a part of myself that I was hiding and I was hiding it even from myself. That was my goal, was to hide it even from myself, and because I was hiding it, I felt vulnerable so much of the time, I felt so nervous and yes, I am an introvert and that hasn't changed.

0:31:13 Daniel: No.

0:31:14 Evelyn: I will continue to be one. But I was so afraid of being found out almost that I had this piece of myself, that was hidden and I...

0:31:26 Daniel: Your sexual self.

0:31:27 Evelyn: Right. But it's not like I could have pinpointed that that was why I was nervous in any way, but I think that the fact that I was fragmenting myself a little bit, and keeping...

0:31:40 Daniel: That's a great way to say it, yeah.

0:31:42 Evelyn: Keeping a part of myself away even from me, increased my anxiety and increased the difficulty that I had interacting with people, I was always so nervous, I was very hypersensitive about the reactions that other people were giving me. And anything that seemed negative I took on myself very, very deeply, and...

0:32:08 Daniel: We're talking like at work, your social life, at church events, every interaction, even talking with your roommate, you're...

0:32:17 Evelyn: Yeah, I was always looking for any negative signs, anything that was wrong, and trying to fit myself into something that would never, ever receive a negative, negative feedback of any kind from anybody, which is so hard to do that pretty much it involved trying to avoid interactions.

0:32:37 Daniel: Absolutely. So tell us more. You're starting to explore your sexual identity. Now that you're looking back, you didn't know at the time how or why that would have a positive impact on even your interaction and in minimizing this.

0:32:53 Evelyn: I found it confusing, honestly.

0:32:54 Daniel: So what did you do with that confusion?

0:32:56 Evelyn: Well, I felt like I don't know why this is working, but it seems to be.

0:33:05 Daniel: So you were seeing results.

0:33:06 Evelyn: Yes, I was seeing results.

0:33:07 Daniel: Right.

0:33:07 Evelyn: I was seeing positive interactions. I was finding myself... I mean, I bring up the roommate, but there were other indications too. I mean, at work, I found myself willing to step forward a little bit more and disagree with people at times and tell them things that I thought as opposed to what I thought they were looking for.

0:33:28 Daniel: This was an impressive time, because your anxiety for the first time that we're seeing wasn't just managed and reduced, your confidence was increasing.

0:33:36 Evelyn: Right. Yeah. I felt very different. I have a sister-in-law that I've come to have quite a good relationship with at this point, but I will say that the first, quite a lot of years of my brother's marriage to her, I was terrified of her, because she has a tendency to give negative feedback unintentionally.

0:33:58 Daniel: She was feeding the cycle.

0:34:00 Evelyn: Yeah. So, I mean, I just thought she hated me. Every time I was in the room, I would just feel... My heart would be pounding and my stomach would be tight and I would be so nervous, because I felt like there was no way that I could get the right feedback from her, and I found myself... She came in one day and said something, and I could have easily taken it the wrong way, and I thought, "I don't think she means anything by that."

0:34:25 Daniel: Interesting.

0:34:27 Evelyn: And just kind of let it go, and opened the door to actually having a positive relationship with her, because I was no longer living in this place where I was always, always worried about what other people thought of me.

0:34:46 Daniel: So why didn't you end it there? You got success you haven't had before. What made you go to the next step?

0:34:55 Evelyn: Well, I would say that the first thing that made me go the next step was that you suggested that I might wanna consider masturbation. And I thought that was a terrible idea.

[laughter]

0:35:08 Daniel: What was going through... In this experience, what was happening?

0:35:13 Evelyn: Well, you mentioned it and I...

0:35:17 Daniel: Now, let's be clear, I wanna... For the audience to understand it. This wasn't, "Go home and do this."

0:35:23 Evelyn: No.

0:35:24 Daniel: So, what was the invitation, do you recall?

0:35:27 Evelyn: I think you said something like, "Have you ever considered or tried masturbation? Has that ever been a part of your exploration?" I don't remember your words exactly, but it was somewhere along those lines.

0:35:44 Daniel: Yup. And I think that was pretty close, 'cause at that point where I started to see more anxiety come up from what we know now, was from your teenage years and it's like, "Woah," so that seed was planted, what happened from there?

0:36:00 Evelyn: Well, I didn't wanna dismiss it out of hand, because I was interacting with someone that I had respect for, and that I had seen positive success from what we'd been working on so far. At the same time, I was pretty terrified that it might destroy my relationship with my Heavenly Father, because that always has been and remains one of the most important relationships in my life.

0:36:34 Daniel: And still is.

0:36:35 Evelyn: Yeah, and still is. And I wanted to make sure that I didn't ever engage in anything that would impact that negatively. So, I was kind of torn between this fear of harming that relationship, and considering the progress that I've made.

0:37:03 Daniel: Yes.

0:37:03 Evelyn: And that trusting you in the past had led to some positive things.

0:37:09 Daniel: You were trusting yourself.

0:37:12 Evelyn: And that's true, I was. But it was your idea that I should explore sexual health in some way.

0:37:20 Daniel: That's correct.

[chuckle]

0:37:23 Evelyn: So, I did have that on my mind too. So trying to balance those things, I went back and forth a lot. And...

0:37:35 Daniel: What does back and forth mean? What were you doing...

0:37:38 Evelyn: Back and forth as in, "Maybe I should try this, wonder what would happen, I wonder how that would impact me? Nope, never gonna do it. Nope, that would be a terrible thing."

0:37:48 Daniel: Talk about your relationship with the Lord in this process, how did you include or not include Him?

0:37:58 Evelyn: I definitely prayed, and my prayer was something along the lines of help me not do something that I will regret, and help me let... Help let me know if I'm going to do something that would be detrimental to our relationship. So there were a lot of prayers like that. I would say, I didn't feel a lot one way or the other at that point, as far as an answer to that prayer.

0:38:26 Daniel: Was that confusing to you?

0:38:29 Evelyn: Not terribly. I think that I've gotten some clear answers in my life and a lot of times that I've been encouraged to figure things out myself.

0:38:40 Daniel: So is that what you did?

0:38:45 Evelyn: Yeah, at least at that moment, and what I did...

0:38:47 Daniel: So, what... Yup.

0:38:49 Evelyn: Was I decided I was not going to masturbate, and I came back and I told you that. And I felt wonderful.

0:39:02 Daniel: Yes, you did, you were glowing.

0:39:06 Evelyn: And... Yeah.

0:39:07 Daniel: I remember that, and I praised you for that. What was the focus of my praise? Do you recall?

0:39:15 Evelyn: I don't recall.

0:39:16 Daniel: You made the decision.

0:39:18 Evelyn: Well, that's... I mean, I think that that for me was the thing that I came to. Yeah, I mean, it was the first decision I had ever really made, sexually, in my life.

0:39:30 Daniel: Yes. That's exactly right. And that was one of the indicators to me, 'cause as you're just talking about a lot of your life, your lot of... What was feeding your anxiety was what... The impressions of what other people were having on you or at least your interpretation of their responses to you.

0:39:48 Evelyn: Yes.

0:39:50 Daniel: And...

0:39:51 Evelyn: A lot of it was interpretation.

0:39:53 Daniel: And what you were just saying also about me, you respected me, both as a... And that's something I take... I don't take lightly, as a therapist, and... Especially within our faith, how do we guide individuals to healthy living while also maintaining their level of faith, their love of God, and supporting them in those areas of their life? And you didn't just do this because I recommended it. You came back with a decision, you prayed about it, you pondered about it, you researched about it, and you came in and you were glowing. Now, this was your choice, and that was amazing.

0:40:41 Evelyn: Yeah. Yeah, the making of the choice was a claiming of my agency in regards to sexuality that I had never made before. Everything I'd done prior to that point was an effort to please somebody else, really.

0:41:02 Daniel: Even suppressing your sexual health?

0:41:04 Evelyn: Yes, yes.

0:41:07 Daniel: That is huge. And I can't... I mean, we're exploring this in the environment of the therapeutic office, but I had seen this, this wasn't a new occurrence, I had seen this over and over, where people had abandoned their agency around their sexual health and the same or similar things occurred. So this was not new to me, but to see it come out of you was just this light bulb moment. So, what did we do from there? What's... We were done with therapy, right? You were perfect, you're healthy.

0:41:43 Evelyn: Yeah, isn't that great?

[chuckle]

0:41:45 Daniel: And end of story, right?

[chuckle]

0:41:47 Evelyn: Of course. [chuckle] Well, I mean, what you did at that point was say, "Okay, that's your decision. Go with that."

0:41:57 Daniel: Yes.

0:42:00 Evelyn: But I kind of continued to think about it, and I think that I felt so freed by the fact that I owned this part of myself, that I...

0:42:16 Daniel: Was it scary owning it?

0:42:20 Evelyn: No, actually.

0:42:23 Daniel: That's interesting. The audience can't see her, she's glowing right now [chuckle] when she responds to that. [chuckle] Tell us more about that. Why was that not scary? This thing was scary all your life.

0:42:37 Evelyn: It was scary on my life and I thought it would be scary, you know? I mean, I thought it would be terrifying, because it had worried me so much, and had been... I mean, I would have such a physical response even to the word masturbation, if anyone else ever said it, I would just feel... I would kind of start to sweat and I'd feel my stomach tighten up and I'd feel just... All my muscles kind of get tight, which was why I couldn't say it. I would dance around the term as much as possible. It was so frightening to me and yet when I made that decision, I was very nervous to tell you. I'll tell you that. I mean, when I came in...

0:43:27 Daniel: I noticed and I...

0:43:28 Evelyn: Yeah.

[chuckle]

0:43:28 Daniel: Absolutely. Hopefully I came across very respectful?

0:43:32 Evelyn: You did, you did. But I mean, that part was nervous...

0:43:34 Daniel: Of course.

0:43:36 Evelyn: But nerve-racking, but when I made the decision and then when I moved on to owning it, it lost its fear. I mean, I lost so much fear around that, and I gained so much confidence to make decisions in other areas of my life too, I think.

0:43:58 Daniel: How much of that was or was any of it, the fact that you're working with a male therapist or was it just the nature of the topic? Did me being a male therapist enhance that nervousness?

0:44:12 Evelyn: Well, probably. Yeah, it probably did.

0:44:15 Daniel: How did you navigate that or how did you resolve that? Or was it a factor that you felt like you had to address?

0:44:24 Evelyn: I didn't really resolve or address. I think it probably did increase my anxiety a bit around it, made it more nerve-racking than it would have been with a woman, but I didn't really... I mean, it wasn't so overwhelming that I really had resolve it, I think.

0:44:46 Daniel: The ability to speak it, to vocalize it was freeing.

0:44:50 Evelyn: Yes, it really was.

0:44:54 Daniel: So you made your decision, you are... You have no need to masturbate, you owned it, your health was improved and we were done with therapy.

0:45:05 Evelyn: No, no, we weren't.

[laughter]

0:45:07 Daniel: So take it to the next step, what's happening?

0:45:13 Evelyn: So the next step was continuing. I continued to work on some of those goals, I was thinking, I was reading, I was studying, I was considering and pondering and praying, and all of those kinds of things, and then I really felt like, actually, I do wanna understand my body, I wanna understand my desire, I want to better understand this whole piece of myself and I made the decision that I did want to try masturbation.

0:45:48 Daniel: I want the audience to understand how thorough you are, 'cause if somebody doesn't know you and hearing what you just said, you continued to think about it. They don't understand how much of a... Exaggeration, that is.

0:46:07 Evelyn: Think about it for me.

0:46:09 Daniel: You read every book there was.

0:46:11 Evelyn: I did, yeah.

0:46:12 Daniel: You scoured the internet, you... Both religious materials, sexual health, you picked up books like And They Were Not Ashamed and you dove right in.

0:46:24 Evelyn: Read about half a dozen different books cover to cover.

0:46:27 Daniel: You're taking the doctrine covenants to heart, read and study and ponder. So I think it's important for the audience, because they don't know you. And so when I hear that you're pondering this, I know that you are diving and this is beyond just thinking.

0:46:42 Evelyn: I am a researcher.

0:46:44 Daniel: Yes, you are.

0:46:45 Evelyn: When I got a cat about 15 years ago or so, I spent a good three days researching all the different names that I might actually name the cat before coming to a decision. If anyone wants to know what product that they should buy that I've already bought, they just ask me, because I have done all the research, I have read 15 different articles, about the 10 best and then looked at what they all had in common and then compared the pros and cons. I am an extremely careful person.

0:47:19 Daniel: So you went into this well aware of what the church leadership, what the culture is, what you've read, but you're feeling that this... I'm gonna put the word positive desire, or desire to explore this, and when I say desire, it's not just arousal desire. Go ahead, tell us more about that.

0:47:45 Evelyn: I would say it wasn't arousal desire at that point, it was a desire for increased understanding. That's what I was looking for was a fuller understanding of myself, and I prayed more and again, there was a lot of I'm feeling good about this decision, and if it's not right, please help me to know that. I really, I really didn't take it lightly.

0:48:20 Daniel: Yeah, so what was your answer, what did you end up doing?

0:48:29 Evelyn: I felt good about it, and so I decided that I would try masturbation and see what happened, and so I did and I felt that understanding, what I was looking for, I felt more in tune with myself, and it wasn't even primarily arousal, it was more that this was a better knowledge of who I am as a person. This is what my body can do, this is the gifts that I've been given, this is... This whole body is a gift and I would like to understand it better. And now I do. So that was, that was more what it was about for me, I think, than it was arousal and orgasm, it was who am I? And I did feel like I developed my relationship with myself.

0:49:39 Daniel: What... I realize you're not even thinking about this, but I know the audience is listening and wondering maybe pornography was not involved.

0:49:50 Evelyn: No.

0:49:51 Daniel: This is a self-understanding. This was so huge. You connected with yourself, with the Spirit. I don't wanna misuse any terminology here, but you seem to increase in your wellness.

0:50:13 Evelyn: Yeah, I would say that... I wouldn't go so far as to say that masturbation was in and of itself a spiritual experience for me. However, what I would say is that as I became more aware of myself that led to things in my life that led to increased spirituality. For example, the appreciation of my body and of the gift that I have received through my body, what I found myself doing was becoming offended by TV shows that made light of sexuality, that had previously not had that impact on me. Previously, I could watch these shows, they really kind of just... Some of these jokes just washed over me. It was just the way that jokes are, and yet suddenly they were bothering me more because they were making light of this thing that was a gift, and so I began to change my media habits and that kind of thing I do think led to overall increased spirituality for me.

0:51:28 Daniel: You're being able to own your own sexuality, you start to have more confidence around people interacting and socializing more, now understanding your physical self, your sexual self physically, you're starting to have a more profound appreciation for how sex is represented in media, that is profound, that is a response that you... I don't think everybody has that response. And I don't wanna set this up as though you go out and masturbate, and you're gonna reject all forms of unhealthy sex. But this is key. This is, I think, part of your personality and was part of your healing and growing into your whole self, and that was a part of your personality you don't want to be exposed to that, you want to appreciate what God has given you. And the media was a distraction to that. Am I understanding that right?

0:52:28 Evelyn: Yeah, I would say that, yeah, that's pretty solid. I think it was, for me personally, in my experience, it was before the different little jokes and things like that. They didn't mean anything to me because it wasn't even...

0:52:51 Daniel: On your radar.

0:52:53 Evelyn: A part of me. But now suddenly it was a part of me, it was impacting me and I felt like I needed to make those changes, so certainly not something I would expect of everybody, but in my personal journey, that's how it went.

0:53:08 Daniel: So, you're emotionally understanding your sexual health, you're physically understanding it, now we're good. Your life is great, is that true?

0:53:18 Evelyn: Well, my life is different.

0:53:20 Daniel: It is different. I think there was some more progress going on there and some new skills that you were learning.

0:53:29 Evelyn: Well, I'll insert another person at this point, which is that this is about the point that I met my husband, and I think that this process kind of prepared me for meeting him, because I was able to talk to him. We were able to discuss things. When we started, I was more comfortable, I was less concerned about what he was thinking about me than I had been in previous relationships where, who knows if they might have worked out or not otherwise, but one reason they definitely weren't going to work out was because I wasn't myself in them, I was too concerned about the way I was being perceived, so I'd reached the point where I was not feeling that in that same way, it was more like, "This is who I am. And let's see if we happen to be compatible and if we're not, it's not a judgement on me, you can go find somebody else."

0:54:35 Daniel: You were much more relaxed about this relationship.

0:54:37 Evelyn: So more relaxed, yes, than I had been in previous relationships.

0:54:42 Daniel: It's interesting 'cause I can't recall if we've ever had this conversation, because I was on the outside looking at as you're sharing your meeting your now husband, and I was wondering the same things, if this, if your ability to understand yourself was helping. It seems like it would be logical, but not necessarily, it doesn't always happen this way, but that was transferring well into your relationship with him.

0:55:07 Evelyn: It was... Yeah, I think the biggest one really was that I liked myself. Not every single tiny little bit of myself.

0:55:18 Daniel: But you valued...

0:55:20 Evelyn: But in general. I thought I was...

0:55:22 Daniel: You were no more rejecting parts of yourself.

0:55:24 Evelyn: Yeah, exactly.

0:55:25 Daniel: And the things that you were not liking, because this isn't about liking every single thing about you. I think that's a beautiful thing if you can do that. Reality is, we're human and we're imperfect and there's gonna be things about ourselves that we don't always love. And you were able to acknowledge those parts without shaming it, without suppressing it, including... I'm talking other things besides just the sexual health part. And so that was making you a more whole person able to interact with your now husband better.

0:55:58 Daniel: Definitely. So we got to know each other and we went from levels of just getting to know each other to having more deep conversations. I felt like I was able to be more vulnerable, and he was too. And then we were eventually able to talk about some of these issues, and that also brought us closer and helped me.

0:56:26 Daniel: You mean before you married? Are you talking about your issues around anxiety and using masturbation as a coping mechanism, or understanding...

0:56:37 Evelyn: Not really a coping mechanism, but that I had had anxiety, that I'd tried different things, we talked about that. We did talk about sexuality before marriage.

0:56:47 Daniel: Which is something you would never done before.

0:56:49 Evelyn: No, I really wouldn't have, I don't think I would have been able to, but I had the vocabulary, and this wasn't like early in our relationship.

0:56:58 Daniel: No, no, no, you guys were... This was clearly at a point that you guys were committed.

0:57:03 Evelyn: Yes. Before we discussed, anything that deep, but...

0:57:08 Daniel: So at this point, let's backtrack just a little bit here. With the use of masturbation, was this a one or two time occurrence, or was this something that you now incorporated into a healthy routine or part of your life? What was it for you?

0:57:25 Evelyn: I'm gonna say somewhere in between those two. It wasn't something that was a routine. Every so often I would masturbate but I wasn't afraid of that either. And so at times I would choose to do that.

0:57:45 Daniel: You recognized the benefits and you were able to use it as... Is that fair to say?

0:57:50 Evelyn: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's here to say.

0:57:53 Daniel: So, the reason when I bring that up, is you now have this additional tool, if you will, in your skill set and understanding yourself and also addressing anxiety. I'm going to assume, I know, but you're dating your husband. How is the stress level? How's your anxiety? Does it ever spike again or what do you deal... How do you deal with your anxiety?

0:58:21 Evelyn: I would say that when we got really close to getting married, I got really anxious. Luckily, I was able to talk about it because I have a husband who's really good at communicating and so he is able to ask me about things, and then I was able to tell him, so I was able to talk about how I was feeling, and the communication reduced my anxiety.

0:58:51 Daniel: Which is something you wouldn't have done before, talk, you would have...

0:58:55 Evelyn: Talking was not one of my management strategies for anxiety.

0:59:02 Daniel: Even though you knew it would help. So that was one of the things that you struggled with. But being able to have the confidence now, and reduced anxiety, or at least anxiety to a level that you can now engage in that conversation, but your pattern in the past was to shut down, become more independent. And would you... In the past, how would you have handled that fear of getting married, how would that have played out?

0:59:32 Evelyn: Okay, well, I would have run away. And I guess I wanna correct the no talking, because it's not that I wouldn't talk to anybody, but I wouldn't talk to the person.

0:59:45 Daniel: Yes, a good clarification, yes.

0:59:48 Evelyn: And I would just run and hide. When I was in college I knew where all of the women's bathrooms were that were really comfortable and had couches in them, because should I be avoiding someone who I was dating who was causing me anxiety, I would spend a lot of time there, because I knew that that was not a place they would go. So running away was a strategy that I used and would probably have been what I would have done. Just run away.

1:00:21 Daniel: So you got married?

1:00:22 Evelyn: I did.

1:00:23 Daniel: Yes, and now, you're having sex?

1:00:30 Evelyn: Uh-huh.

1:00:32 Daniel: How did the things you learned before marriage help you or not help you in your sex life?

1:00:39 Evelyn: Oh, boy, they helped me, but there was a long way to go.

1:00:45 Daniel: So it wasn't automatic, you now...

1:00:47 Evelyn: No way.

1:00:49 Daniel: And part of this also is you're learning yourself in a later phase of your life, and so this is... Even if you're learning earlier on there's no comparison to having another intimate person in your sexual life. And so as much as you're comfortable tell us about the... What are some obstacles you had to face and how did you use these skills to help you through it?

1:01:14 Evelyn: Okay, well, the major obstacle that we ran into was that sex was very painful for me. And I think that if I had not had the experiences prior to marriage that I had, I would have had no idea what to do from there. I would either have completely cut off sex and decided that that was not something we could do, or honestly, more likely I would have continued to say yes but absolutely hated it and felt every experience being something that pushed me farther away rather than bringing me closer to my husband.

1:02:03 Daniel: So you mentioned painful sex?

1:02:05 Evelyn: Yes.

1:02:06 Daniel: You later found out through a medical check-up what that was and something that a lot of people still don't understand. Do you mind talking about that?

1:02:13 Evelyn: No, I don't mind at all. I guess this goes back to how my prior experiences helped me, because I was willing to talk about it and so we had a lot of conversations, my husband and I, and I really felt committed to figuring out what was going on, and part of that was going to see the doctor. So I made an appointment with my OBGYN.

1:02:37 Daniel: You knew something was wrong, whereas before, you may not have, you just might have thought, "Okay, this is just what sex is."

1:02:44 Evelyn: Yeah, I might have. I mean, that would have been devastating, but yeah, I might have, but I did know that wasn't what it was supposed to be like, and I went and I spoke with the doctor, and she did some checking, and she said that I had vaginismus and she prescribed some physical therapy, so I was able to go and work with a physical therapist weekly for several months.

1:03:20 Daniel: These involved dilators?

1:03:20 Evelyn: Mm-hmm. Yeah, we did dilators, we did massage, which not as fun as the other kind of massage, sorry, but was helpful. [chuckle]

1:03:30 Daniel: Not With a physical therapist. But it was helpful.

1:03:34 Evelyn: It was helpful.

1:03:35 Daniel: Joking aside, it was helpful.

1:03:37 Evelyn: All joking aside, it was helpful, because I started to gradually get to work on the physical part. I didn't enjoy using the dilators at all.

1:03:48 Daniel: No. I can't even imagine.

1:03:49 Evelyn: Not very fun, but I could put on a TV show or something like that, and distract myself a little bit.

1:03:56 Daniel: So the physical therapist... Way to be, way to order support there. The dilators, the physical therapist, did that help resolve the pain?

1:04:10 Evelyn: It definitely made significant progress toward it, but it was incomplete without the communication.

1:04:17 Daniel: Was masturbation involved in this at all?

1:04:21 Evelyn: Little bit, yeah.

1:04:22 Daniel: So in your marriage, you're using masturbation.

1:04:25 Evelyn: Well, what I used it for, I would say at that point, was to assist me with the physical therapy.

1:04:32 Daniel: Yes. That would make sense.

1:04:35 Evelyn: Because it did help there.

1:04:35 Daniel: Warm things up. Yeah.

1:04:37 Evelyn: Yeah, exactly.

1:04:39 Daniel: What about other times in your marriage, do you... Was masturbation used as a...

1:04:45 Evelyn: Hasn't been, really. Not that it never would be, but we've done other things.

1:04:51 Daniel: Good.

[chuckle]

1:04:57 Evelyn: I feel like the physical aspects were part of it, and so I was able to work on those, but the other piece of it that was really important was being able to work on the psychological and talk and go slow and be patient and enjoy whatever it is that we can enjoy, what pieces of it, as we continue to develop.

1:05:23 Daniel: Evelyn, you've been so open here, and I assure you there are many listening to this who maybe even in tears, just feeling comforted from the words that you're using. Is there any, as we're wrapping up here, any advice that you would specifically give young women maybe who were in your shoes as a teenager or currently are, or anyone, what advice would you give?

1:05:54 Evelyn: Well, I think something that I would like to have been able to tell my younger self is that, that feeling arousal is something that happens to people, and I felt so alone because of the way that it was being talked about, and I don't want to villainize any of the wonderful people that I got to work with as a youth, because they were incredible leaders. They touched my life and they blessed my life in so many ways, and they were absolutely doing the best that they could. Having said that, though, no one ever told me that feeling arousal is something that people experience and that it is not a sin, and it's just something that happens because that's the way we're built.

1:06:58 Daniel: Well said.

1:07:00 Evelyn: And we can then figure out what to do with those experiences and how to manage ourselves and our sexuality and keep it within bounds and develop self-mastery. But that the experience is, it doesn't make you a bad person, and it also doesn't make you a unique one, because I think that was part of it for me, I thought that I must be the only person who is experiencing this, and the fact that I could have accidentally stumbled on something so terrible must make me a terrible person. And that's why I kind of had to cut that off, because I didn't see that it was a normal part of development. So I think that's what I'd want people to know, I'd want myself to know that, that it's normal.

1:07:55 Daniel: Well said. Evelyn, thank you.

1:07:57 Evelyn: You're welcome.

1:07:57 Daniel: Thank you, thank you.

[music]


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Daniel Burgess Daniel Burgess

Reigniting the Flame with Amy and Aaron

Reigniting the flame....when it has dimmed. Keeping it fresh and fun after decades of marriage and navigating all of the changes that occurs as we age. We had been married around 25 years and our intimate relationship had pretty much ceased to exist. We were happy and had a great relationship but there was almost no sexual intimacy. I decided we were way too young (44) to be in a sexless marriage and took steps to change it:

  1. Dialogue

  2. Subscription boxes

  3. Podcasts

  4. Joined intimacy groups on line

  5. Educated ourselves

  6. went to the doctor

  7. hormone treatment (both of us)

  8. weight loss (both of us)

  9. got vulnerable and real

  10. 30 day sex challenge

  11. scheduled sex daily

  12. we’ve have had sex 2x a day for about a year now and are more emotionally connected than ever. Navigating life is easier and we are so much more open, honest and vulnerable.

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Daniel Burgess Daniel Burgess

Betrayal Trauma: Anarie's Definition of Success

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In our last episode Anarie shares her experience with betrayal trauma. At the end of the interview I had stopped the recording just before she made another important and insightful comment. She apologized for not having a “success” story. Knowing that comment would lead into a valuable conversation I asked to continue recording and if I could share that conversation with the audience.

This episode picks up right after Anarie’s success comment and contains our real-time conversation on the definition of success. Within this episode Anarie mentions my divorce which I have written about here.

Anarie also mentions she found comfort around how I have defined therapeutic success. This comment was in reference to a comment I made within my Facebook group, on this post.

That comment was as follows:
“Thank you so much for posting this, I actually have a podcast planned on this very topic. I don't have much time to thoroughly address this topic, but there is a few problems here. However, before I share my concerns; there are many amazing therapists out there who give everything they have and have been instrumental in saving marriages. Now the problems with some therapists:

1) This is a complicated one, and unless you've trained to become a therapist and tried to make a living solely as a therapist, it’s difficult to understand. But the education system, career path to therapy is completely unsupportive of private practice.

2) The stats (and MHO, and a problem with gottman) is the stats are stupid and measuring the wrong outcomes. You don't measure success on marriages "saved". This is potentially ethically wrong. I've worked with too many therapists who attempt to "save" marriages even in abuse. My job as a marriage therapist isn't to "save" or end a marriage. But to guide, support two individuals to healthy living and how to navigate the differences in loving and support ways. Sometimes that’s separation. Too many therapist enable unhealthy relationships to "save" a marriage, so not good.

3) Kind of related to number one. There are occasional exceptions, but marriage therapy shouldn't go beyond a year or two at the most. Ideally 1-12 months, with follow ups as needed. Any longer is indicative of individuals needs for underlying mental health issues that would do best treated in individual counseling. One of the first things I tell my clients is I’m working my self out of a job from day one. After about 6 months we revisit and if progress isn't made I may make suggestions for alternative treatment or therapist. Which leads me to 4...

4) Why is it such a concern therapist are working with couples for a decade or more? Two reasons; enabling and the therapist becomes part of the family system.

5) Clients are not adequately informed by the therapist or what therapy is for. Too many spouses arrive at therapy to convenience the other that they are wrong. They use the therapist to get the other to change, without changing themselves. This is called triangulating.

There are many great therapists out there, but we need to do a better job at communicating the purpose of therapy, the therapist role and the clients role.

Podcast Transcript:

[music]

00:05 Voice Over: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.

00:26 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. On today's episode, I wanna take a few minutes and share with you a discussion I had with our last interview, Anarie. In our last episode, we talked about her experiences around betrayal trauma and what it was like to go through treatment. And at the end of our interview, I had turned off the recording and she had made a comment, and that comment was, "I'm sorry, this isn't a success story." I asked for permission to continue recording and to share the conversation that you're about to hear, so that's what this is. What does it mean to be successful in our journey? And I think you'll find this enlightening. I hope you enjoy.

01:12 ANARIE: I really wished that it could be like...

01:14 Daniel: How are you not a success story?

01:15 ANARIE: Well, I know I am, I appreciated what you said somewhere, [01:22] ____ I saw you say somewhere, about how we define success in therapy. That was like really validating for me. But I know a lot of people in the middle of betrayal trauma wanna listen to the success stories, it resulted in connection. And I do believe that LifeSTAR, I know there are successes that come out of LifeSTAR, mine didn't, and I feel like I'm getting clear all the time on like why it didn't, but...

01:43 Daniel: Wait, wait, wait. I think you and I are on the same page, but...

01:47 ANARIE: Okay.

01:47 Daniel: When you say success, you mean you didn't get a divorce?

01:53 ANARIE: Well, yeah, yeah. It would have been successful if he and I had successfully connected and I had a great marriage now.

02:00 Daniel: But it's so... Sorry, not but...

02:01 ANARIE: But I couldn't control, I couldn't control his side of things.

02:04 Daniel: The interesting thing about differentiation though is that it will sometimes lead to divorce, because you are recognizing the need to be an individual in the relationship and the other person can't.

02:19 ANARIE: Yeah, yeah. And that's the better outcome.

02:22 Daniel: Yes.

02:23 ANARIE: That divorce is a better outcome and not the situation. But... So I'm just voicing some of my internal fears of, I have this issue of people are gonna write me off because I failed.

02:33 Daniel: No...

02:34 ANARIE: But I mean, you're proving you got divorced and you still are a valid voice [chuckle] in [02:38] ____.

02:38 Daniel: Yes.

02:39 ANARIE: But that's where I'm wrestling right now, it's like, I'm worried that because I am divorced, everyone can just write me off as a failure. So... Anyway, it's my own issue at the moment that I'm voicing to you.

02:51 Daniel: Are you okay? Would you be okay if I included this part? This is huge, this is huge.

02:57 ANARIE: Yeah.

02:58 Daniel: The fear, 'cause our definition of success plays a big role in recovery, period. I don't care what you're dealing with, if you have a predetermined idea or expectation of what success is, within reason, right? Of course, we wanna be healthy. Healthy is a reasonable expectation of treatment, whether it's medical, therapy, etcetera. But when we get down to the specifics of, "We are gonna be this type of married couple for the rest of our life and we're gonna parent our kids this way," that type of expectation where it's evolving, especially the agency and being of another person, that gets in the way of what you're discovering. And the reality that maybe success means you two need to go on your separate way, and this is...

03:49 ANARIE: And that can be an issue in some couples' therapy as well.

03:52 Daniel: Big time, yes.

03:54 ANARIE: That if there's too much commitment, do we have to make this marriage work at all costs? They can interfere with the health and well-being of the marriage and of everybody involved.

04:03 Daniel: And you're right, a lot of people... Well maybe not a lot, hopefully not a lot, but some will listen to this and say, "Well, then you're a failure." But that's part of the culture that we have to shift, because that mentality is hurting and isn't understood well, and is getting in the way of meaningful treatment, helpful treatment. And so. Yeah, I would...

04:27 ANARIE: Yeah. And I never imagined at the beginning of treatment that my story would end in divorce or that the outcome would be. But it's okay that it did, and I really believe that it's what's best for me and it's what's best for him in the way that things needed to go for us.

04:46 Daniel: Excellent, thank you.

[music]

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Daniel Burgess Daniel Burgess

Intro to Improving Intimacy Podcast

Welcome to “Improving Intimacy”, a podcast for single and married Latter-day Saints seeking to build stronger family connections and marriages.

I am your host, Daniel A. Burgess Marriage & Family Therapist, father, husband, author, podcaster and presenter. Like Lehi tasting of the fruit from the tree of life, my profound love and testimony for the Gospel of Jesus Christ has been a hope and light in my life that I desire to share with everyone.

As both a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and a Marriage & Family Therapist, I will explore both the teachings of the church and mental health concepts relating to improving intimacy.



Welcome to “Improving Intimacy”, a podcast for single and married Latter-day Saints seeking to build stronger family connections and marriages.

I am your host, Daniel A. Burgess Marriage & Family Therapist, father, husband, author, podcaster and presenter. Like Lehi tasting of the fruit from the tree of life, my profound love and testimony for the Gospel of Jesus Christ has been a hope and light in my life that I desire to share with everyone.

As both a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and a Marriage & Family Therapist, I will explore both the teachings of the church and mental health concepts relating to improving intimacy.  

Early on as a therapist, I quickly discovered that there were few resources within the church that guided individuals through, what I call the messy process of improving intimate relationships. The church manuals, conference talks and other LDS resources do a great job at providing the ideal, eternal objectives. But what does it look like to improve intimate relationships in the messiness of day to day life?

I’ll explore a broad range of common and often difficult topics including; communication, parenting, sex, conflict resolution, divorce, blended families, pornography, preparing for marriage, and sexual health education. In addition, I’ll explore how to navigate discussions around both taboo and sacred topics using the scriptures and the teachings of the prophets.

“Improving Intimacy” is intended as an educational resource, although my guests and I are licensed therapists and members of the church. The resources and information provided in each episode is not intended to replace individual therapeutic treatment or represent any official teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Now join me for the next episode of “Improving Intimacy”…

Continue the improving intimacy discussion by joining the Improving Intimacy Facebook group.

Do you have a story to share about improving intimacy in your marriage?

I am looking for individuals and couples to interview for the "Improving Intimacy" podcast. Ideally, I would like couples to interview. But I understand scheduling can be difficult especially for those with children, so individuals are welcome to participate. This included those who are currently single/dating.

The ideal couple/individuals are those who are improving but still trying to figure it out, to those who feel they have mastered aspects of their relationship. Willing to be vulnerable, raw and explore the "messy" in the relationship. In other words, you don't have to be a "picture perfect" couple. If you feel your discovery is worth sharing and might help others, you're the right person.

Some topics I'm looking for, those who feel they have:

  1. learned how to navigate your sexual relationship.

  2. used this group to improve their marriage.

  3. learned how to navigate pornography with your spouse.

  4. learned how to navigate pornography with your children.

  5. used masturbation to improve your sexual intimacy.

  6. learned how to discuss sex, pornography and/or masturbation with children.

  7. learned how to make spouse a priority in the child raising years.

  8. overcome sexual trauma, whether that is from abuse, cultural shame, etc...

If there is a topic not listed, which you'd like to share, contact me at admin@danielaburgess.com.

If you are interested in an interview please schedule with me by clicking here.

To allow our podcast to continue growing, please consider submitting a donation.

 
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