Sarah Chapman's Journey of Self-Realization | Learning to Enjoy Sexuality

My name is Sarah Chapman. I’ve been married for almost 20 years to my husband, Trent, together we have 5 children and live in Lehi, Utah.

I am an author of two books, “MindStrength for Women” and “Underneath it all.....You’re Naked” Both of these books were written after a very hard period of time in life. One was about my physical journey to coming back to myself and the other is my sexuality journey of overcoming my judgment about sex to becoming more curious.

I went about teaching women about sexual health for 2 years and mainly surrounding the female sexual response cycle. I taught women that you can’t find freedom in your understanding of your sexuality until you have overcome the deep rooted beliefs about sex. I found my own freedom from it that is why I wrote a book about it.

Now my focus is on creating a community of women where we come together weekly to share the physical, mental and sexual aspects of our lives and have meaningful discussions with a workbook followed by an exercise class. Because movement creates emotion.

You can find me:

Instagram : @mindstrength.for.women

MindStrength for Women Facebook Group

Email: sarah@mindstrengthmentor.com

Full Transcript:

00:00 Narrator: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married, Latter-Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy, Daniel is a Marriage and Family Therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.

[music]

00:28 Daniel: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. On today’s episode we have Sarah Chapman, who is an author; and we’re excited to review her book with her today and kinda learn her journey to getting to this book. Sarah, welcome to the show.

00:44 Sarah: Thank you for having me, Daniel. I appreciate this, it’s really exciting.

00:48 Daniel: I’m very excited. As someone who’s writing a book, I also 1) kinda selfishly learn your journey, (mine’s been a very difficult one). And, so I may get a little selfish in my inquiries here--but more importantly, I’m curious to hear more about you. Who are you as a wife, as a person, as a mother? Tell us a little about yourself and what got you to this point.

01:12 Sarah: Sure, love to. So, I (we), Trent and I, my husband and I, will be going on 19 years of marriage this September. I have 5 children, I currently live in Utah. We lived in California for a time, actually, in San Diego area actually. Miss that place, for sure. But, yeah, I first basically grew up in an LDS home and I grew up in a family with 8 children, and I’m 6th of the 8. [...] In our home we didn’t talk about anything remotely close to our bodies. We were very surface type of family. We didn’t really talk about hard things. I wouldn’t say that we were an authentic family. But, at the same time, I did feel loved by my parents and I felt that they were providing me with a really great education, secularly as well as spiritually. And so, I didn’t feel like I was necessarily neglected in the way I was thinking. 

02:29 Sarah: However, growing up as a teenager in the 90s, I’d run around with some friends who were sexually active and seeing the naive young teenager that I was, I kinda looked at them and viewed them as people who were naughty girls, right? And so, I remember church lessons here and there. It wasn’t very often, but I do remember those specific metaphors that were shared. I actually did get the “chewed up piece of gum” kind of analogy, which maybe a lot of your audience here might have gotten.

03:10 Daniel: Oh…(sarcastically) excellent. Yeah.

03:13 Sarah: You know? And then I also just really created a lot of...I would just look at the word sex and just immediately think that it was just this dirty thing. However, there was also this other part of me that was being told that it was this sacred thing, and you don’t talk about it, right? And so I was just kinda like this....back and forth in my head about like, “what is this?” Sure, I had boyfriends in high school and I do remember getting close a couple times where I feel like my body was in a state of arousal. Obviously I didn’t know what it was, because I didn’t know my body then. But looking back, I’m like, “Oh, that’s what that tingling sensation was when I was getting close to that boy, oh! Okay, right.” 

04:06 Sarah: I can say that now, but at the time, as a teenager, I didn’t at all. And I never (like when I would shower and stuff), like I would just hurry and shower really quick and then get out. I never wanted to self-pleasure or anything, at all. I didn’t even know my body. And so, come the time of marriage, the night before I’m to be married, my mom thinks it’s a great time to talk about sex. She pulls me aside and she basically asked me, “You’re gonna have sex tomorrow night, right?” and I was like, “well, I guess…”. I mean, I kinda remember my teenage years back in high school telling me that a penis goes inside a vagina, but then I was like...I plugged my ears like “I don’t wanna hear this, I don’t wanna hear this!” I just kinda ignored what they were gonna tell me. I knew just that fact: that a penis goes into a vagina and that was it. My mom was like, “Well, here’s a book. Go ahead and read this book.” And it was the book from...is it called, Between Husband and Wife by Lamb? Dr. Lamb?

05:14 Daniel: Oh yeah, oh yeah.

05:15 Sarah: Yeah, it was that book. And I was like, “Mom, I don’t have time to read this book.” And she’s like, “Well, you’ll eventually refer back to it.” And that was it. That was my sex talk from my mom. I was just basically thrown into the fire the night of my wedding. It was very traumatic. Very long, exhausting night as any honeymooners would imagine, who had never had sex before, trying to figure things out, trying to figure out our bodies. Anyways, it was just a mess. And I called my mom the next day, just in tears, like, “I just got married and this just happened to me.” I didn’t go into detail with her because we don’t...we don’t talk about details or anything like that. But I really wanted to, like, it was like this cry for help. Like, “why didn’t you tell me these things? Why didn’t you help me to understand how my body works in this way? That it’s supposed to be designed for this?” Anyway. That’s just kinda the cycle that happened for I’d say the first 16 years of my marriage. That was the only thing we really fought about in our marriage, was sex. It wasn’t money or anything, it was always about sex.

06:42 Daniel: You mean, the issues were always about sex?

06:45 Sarah: The issues, yeah.

06:46 Daniel: Okay.

06:47 Sarah: Yeah, thank you. Yeah. The issues around sex. He would always try to approach me and help to try to fix me, right? Because of course he wanted a decent experience, too. But, at the same time, I was looking at him like, “Oh...this is all you want. You just want my body.” And that was it. I viewed myself as this tool for him.

07:09 Daniel: So let me pause you right there. What you just stated was big! It was huge. So, you viewed yourself as a tool for him to get satisfied, is that what you’re saying?

07:22 Sarah: Exactly, yeah.

07:24 Daniel: And that was because of…

07:25 Sarah: You know, because I never...I never wanted to receive that pleasure for myself. Because I once again thought it was like...I thought I was a bad girl if I did that, right? So, even when I did have an orgasm, I’d immediately feel guilty every single time afterwards because of this shame that I’d created in my head about me having pleasure. So then, I viewed him as, “oh, he’s just using my body, and sex is for him, and orgasm is something that he just needs all the time.”

08:03 Daniel: I wanna explore that a little bit, if you’re okay with it. I know you bring it up in indirect ways, in fact, in your book Underneath it All... and I apologize to the audience, I didn’t mention the name of your book, Underneath it All...You’re Naked. I love that title by the way, I think it’s excellent.

08:18 Sarah: Thank you

08:19 Daniel: And your subtitle is “shedding light on misconceptions about sex from a Christian wife to Christian women.” But what you said right there was, you couldn’t allow yourself to experience pleasure. If you’re okay with that, let’s explore that a little bit more. You’re not the first to say this on my podcast and I hear it a lot from clients. What did it mean to you to experience pleasure? You’re married now, you knew clearly beforehand that (or, atleast, your value system says that) before marriage, I’m not gonna experience this. You’re saying: you jump in the shower, you get out as fast as you can because you didn’t want to self-stimulate or do anything wrong.

08:56 Sarah: Yep

08:57 Daniel: So now you’re married. What was the barrier for you in allowing yourself to experience that joy?

09:08 Sarah: Well, I think you’re basically asking what kinda shifted that focus for me?

09:16 Daniel: Well, what continued? A lot of men will get into relationships, they know they’re not supposed to pleasure before marriage but now they’re in marriage and they’re willing to let it all go--kinda the dynamic you just explained with you and your husband.

09:28 Sarah: Yeah.

09:29 Daniel: But, what prevented you, I guess...maybe, is it a shift? I guess that’s the question I’m asking you is, is it a shift? Or, it seemed more like though, you carried this perspective: “I’m not allowed to have sexual pleasure even in marriage.” Which seems incongruent with the thoughts and beliefs you had before marriage. What was the barrier to...I mean, you saw your husband having pleasure, did that peak your interest and say, “How can I have that pleasure?” or was it this continued, “I can’t have this. It’s too shameful, it’s too hurtful.”

10:04 Sarah: No, it was definitely too hurtful to me. I would just, lay there. I always like to say I’d lay there like a dead fish, maybe you’ve heard that term before. I would just allow him to just do whatever he wanted to my body. You know? And I was really good at faking orgasm. It was definitely something just to get him off me as soon as I could, right? Because I just felt dirty the whole time, when he was on me. It’s amazing how much conditioning that I had created in my head, and this belief that really ate away at my soul. To know that this shame enveloped my whole body and created a wedge in my marriage to where I looked at him as somebody that just used me. You know? 

11:10 Daniel: So, I’m really curious. What took you from that experience to what you say on page 56? It’s this idea of being able to embrace very differently. Practice patience, self-compassion, and have a sense of humor about it. That seems like a complete 180 shift. 

11:29 Sarah: Yeah.

11:30 Daniel: What was the journey you had from what you’re experiencing, that “pleasure is painful and icky” to this wonderful perspective of even having a sense of humor about it? What led you there?

11:41 Sarah: Well, not an overnight thing. I’ll just say that right now. [laughs] It definitely was, you know, I had this moment--this wake-up call. Sixteen years in, I was fed up. Basically telling myself over and over and over, “Sarah why can’t you figure this out? Why is this so hard for you? Why can’t you just get over this? Why do you look at sex in this perspective?” Just this why, why why. I finally had this moment of surrender. I didn’t talk to anybody, Daniel. I suffered in silence for years. I didn’t talk to my sisters, definitely not my mom, right? Not even my girlfriends, nobody.

12:30 Daniel: That’s what we’re taught. We’re taught to not even talk to our loved one’s about it, even our spouse.

12:34 Sarah: Exactly, exactly. And of course, then Trent would ask, my husband would ask me, “what is it you want?” And I’m like, “well, I don’t know what i want.” I’ve never allowed myself to have conversations and talk about it. He would just ask me question after question to open my mind and see the possibility and then I’d shut him down all the time, right? It was just this constant battle. So finally, it was just this one day, I called Suzanne, right? I refer to her in my book a lot. She was this woman who I met randomly in Guatemala of all places. I just look back and I’m like, it was by divine design that I would meet her that summer of 2017 so that she could open my eyes.

13:20 Daniel: I actually love what you said about Suzanne, is that she started her journey because of romance novels. I like that.

13:29 Sarah: Yeah. I’m not a big romance novel kind of girl but you know, some people are. Anyway we got to talking. We literally...our airbnbs were literally across from each other. I didn’t know Spanish, she didn’t know Spanish, it was a Sunday afternoon, we had nothing else to do--so we got to know each other. And we literally...like, she just opened up to me. We talked about our sex lives, and this ws the very first time I was like, this is a really fun conversation! It was the first time I actually looked at it with clear eyes to see the potential in me and the hope. Because she had already kinda gone through her own little journey, because she was basically me. She gave me hope to look at it with a different set of eyes. I went from a place of--this is where I talk a lot about, in my book--this view of going from a judgement place to being more curious. She allowed me, she gave me permission. It’s interesting how as women, we need permission, you know?

14:44 Daniel: What I’m curious though, is, what was it about Suzanne that allowed you to open up? you have been fighting this for so many years.

14:52 Sarah: Yeah.

14:53 Daniel: What prevented you from putting up another barrier? “Nope, I’m not talking about that, that’s betraying my husband, that’s betraying myself…”

14:57 Sarah: That’s true.

14:58 Daniel: What was it about her that allowed you to open up? 

15:03 Sarah: Good question.

15:04 Daniel: I think that’s the biggest thing with women is finding that opportunity and how, because they get into this same place where “I can’t talk about this and I won’t talk about it and I don’t care how familiar I am with you”--so what was it about her>

15:15 Sarah: Yeah. Well, one of the things that I had been studying and learning about...I love Brené Brown, and at that point in my life I’d really been learning vulnerability and authenticity. When she just started talking to me and exposing herself to me, I was .... she gave me permission to therefore share my things, right? There’s power when you can start a conversation and be like, “I’m messed up.” You know? “Here’s all these parts of me that I don’t understand, can you help me kinda walk through this?” 

15:53 Sarah: And that’s what she was for me, you know? And I think that’s what really created that safe place for me. She was like my safe place, because we could relate on so many levels, right? And I think when there’s vulnerability and authenticity in any friendship or relationship, there’s definitely power behind that--to be able to know, “hey, I’m not alone. We can do this together.” And I feel like that’s kinda what I’ve been doing now...you know, here’s my mess and I’m creating it into a message and helping other women to understand “you’re not alone. You’re not broken. There’s hope for you.” And I think that’s what's beautiful about this. And that’s what made that shift for me, is to allow myself to just open up, receive the information from this trusted (well, quick-trusted friend, right? I’d just met her) and just share all of me with her. It was quite an experience, that was for sure.

17:00 Daniel: So it sounds like Brené Brown gave you that courage, 

17:04 Sarah: Yeah, exactly.

17:04 Daniel: that platform, or, not platform, kinda that foundation that it’s okay to be vulnerable here. But what I think is important for the audience to be aware of is, you’re still really new in your journey. This was very recently. So, you went to, on that trip back in, if I remember right, 2017?

17:20 Sarah: 2017, yeah.

17:21 Daniel: So you’re only like, three years into this.

17:25 Sarah: Yeah.

17:25 Daniel: That is phenomenal! You cranked out a book in sharing your journey. That’s...

17:31 Sarah: Yeah.

17:32 Daniel: So, emotionally, what is that like for you right now? So, kinda step away from the book and this narrative. You really are, in the context of people who are learning themselves, you’re really at the beginning of this journey. So, emotionally, what are you going through right now?

17:52 Sarah: Emotionally, I mean, you know what? I started it...I just consumed as much information as I could. I finally got to this place where I could..

18:06 Daniel: Do you feel like you’re a lot more confident? Or do you feel like you still have a lot of insecurities or vulnerabilities around it? Where do you feel like you’re at?

18:15 Sarah: I totally feel confident in my sexuality now, and that I can say that--I wouldn’t say 100%, for sure--I’m still learning and growing and I think that’s what’s great about understanding your sexuality because it’s going to always evolve and change because there’s just more things we’re gonna find out about ourselves. But, oh man, just to think about where I’ve...even just two years ago...to where I am now, and being able to have emotional connection with my husband, and him understanding how me, as a woman, how I work. And, you know, he takes the time to emotionally connect with me before even getting into the bedroom, you know? And understanding how my body needs to go through this sexual response cycle, which, I talk about that in my book. There’s a lot of therapists out there that talk about the different sexual response cycles that we go through, right?

19:20 Daniel: Exactly.

19:21 Sarah: And just, understanding that.

19:22 Daniel: So you gave yourself permission to get here so that you can help your husband understand your body because in the past, you know, he’s asking what you want, and as you said, you’re there as a dead fish. Just, finish it out.

19:33Sarah: Yeah.

19:34 Daniel: That, I think, is critical. Like I posted in our Improving Intimacy group today this idea of, especially with women, “okay, I’ve given myself permission, now it’s scary.” Was it scary to give yourself permission? Were you afraid of what you discovered?

19:50 Sarah: Oh, yeah! Yeah. So, of course, we’re going to have those fears. It’s part of our human nature, especially when we’ve created so much judgement and shame around it. There’s going to be fear that comes up. And there’s definitely going to be things that we might come across we don’t quite understand, or we definitely judge really quickly, right? 

20:18 Sarah: Masturbation being one of them for me. That was a huge, like...I didn’t want to enter that specific subject until I felt comfortable in my body first, and learning the anatomy of my body first, before I could venture into that. So I feel like it’s a series of stepping stones. You kinda have to evolve into and work into. As I started reading all these books, that’s kind of what happened after I met with Suzanne, she gave me a couple books to read--and from there, I just took off. I was like, thirsting for knowledge for the first time in sex. Once I’d read one book, I went to the next book, and then I went to the next book. Just reading so much content that I could get my hands on. It was this, like, basically cry for help and just learning on my couch from all different kinds of therapists and sex experts and human sexuality professors and so many things, and I just was like, “oh my gosh! I’m finally in a place where I can receive this!” And yes, there’s gonna be content out there, once again, that we just kinda have to like, pick and choose, I don’t know, what resonates with you?

21:39 Daniel: I think that’s...I wanna ask you about that. 

21:43 Sarah: Sure.

21:44 Daniel: But before I do, I really appreciate you addressing, briefly, in your book, about masturbation. You give a context for it, the history behind it, the fears around it.

21:51 Sarah: Yeah.

21:52 Daniel: What was that journey for you? You’re addressing that fear, you’re realizing, “okay, I need to understand myself.” Some wives feel like, “okay, I do need to figure out my body, but I will not do it without my husband present. 

22:05 Sarah: Yeah. 

22:06 Daniel: What was it like for you? Did you find that it was more valuable to do it alone so that you could do it without pressure? Or was it important for you to explore that with your spouse?

22:15 Sarah: So, in the beginning, I chose to explore with my husband. And it’s still a work in progress, Daniel [laughs], it’s still kinda like...I’m not fully 100% like going off by myself all the time, you know what I mean? But at the same time, like, it’s kinda going back to this stepping stone thing. I start with my husband to understand, and know, and feel comfortable, and then [...] it’s still just something that I know, I KNOW--that’s the crazy part, I KNOW--that it’s beneficial for me to know what feels good and what doesn’t, you know? 

22:56 Daniel: Absolutely.

22:57 Sarah: But then, the shame just creeps in. And I remember this one specific time, I was like, “okay, Sarah.” I was seriously coaching myself! “Okay, Sarah, we can do this. We can do this!” You know?

23:11 Daniel: And you’re talking about when you’re masturbating, you’re trying to...

23:14 Sarah: Yeah!

23:14 Daniel: ...to get into the headspace.

23:15 Sarah: Like, I’ll go and I’ll coach myself and like, I’ll breathe and everything. A really great book, Slow Sex, was really powerful for me, by the way.

23:24 Daniel: Okay, excellent. Excellent book.

23:25 Sarah: Just the breathing, and… yeah.

23:26 Daniel: I think a lot of...so, we’re speaking to an LDS audience or a Christian-based audience. Sometimes, that book isn’t received very well. She talks about a lot of--

23:37 Sarah: Yeah

23:38 Daniel: So, the audience--it’s an excellent book. Excellent book. It does venture into some concepts and ideas that I think are extremely helpful, but be aware, it is not a warning, but just be aware--you're not going out and getting, you know, an LDS book about how to understand your own sexuality. It’s a very raw and in-depth book. Excellent.

24:00 Sarah: Yeah.

24:01 Daniel: So, I think that’s, so that kinda leads me into my second question, or where we left off before I asked this question. There’s so many resources out there. Often, when people try to explore this route, they stay, you know they kind of follow that insecurity be staying on a very safe path of resources. I don’t wanna name any books, I don’t want anybody to feel like they’re being judged around it, but--

24:27 Sarah: Sure.

24:28 Daniel: How did you, for example, Emily Nagoski, that’s not an LDS author. How did you determine which books were good for you? Whether it’s Jennifer Finlayson-Fife, or Natasha [breaks off]

24:39 Sarah: Uh huh.

24:40 Daniel: What was your internal compass to decide, “this is helpful, this is good in my pursuit of my own sexuality, but being within the framework of my faith?”

24:51 Sarah: Sure. The thing is, when you go on Amazon, there’s going to be all kinds of reviews from all over, right? Of course I would read the reviews, that’s what most people do when they go searching for a book. but also, of course, having my friend Suzanne of course had already read a few. So I kinda had an understanding...

25:14 Daniel: [laughs]

25:15 Sarah: ...from some of the things, right? so then there’s also...I did go and actually look them up, not just about their book but just them as a person. I did some research on who they are and like, what are they teaching, what are they, like, out there, like, what’s their message, kind of thing. And so then I felt more comfortable to kinda open up and seek. And of course, I’d go to my city library, right? And go to the sexuality section and I’d just camp out and just kinda peruse books that way. That’s also helpful ‘cause it’s free. It’s not like I’m going to buy a book. But, there’s so many [pauses] there’s amazing people out there doing amazing things, and I just…

26:09 Daniel: So I guess, let me push a little on this, is--for example, with Slow Sex, what kept you from reading that and saying, “whoa. This is way outside of my value system.”

26:17 Sarah: [laughs]

26:18 Daniel: “I shouldn’t be reading this.” And we’re talking about, just three years ago, you’re Sarah who’s just now recognizing all the rigidity around your sexual understanding and lack of understanding with your sexuality.

26:31 Sarah: Yeah.

26:32 Daniel: What kept you from throwing that book aside and saying, “this is horrible”?

26:39 Sarah: Well, I know this sounds really simple, but what I kept coming back to all the time, Daniel, was “Sarah, quit judging it. Be more curious.”

26:50 Daniel: Not simple at all. That is beautiful.

26:54 Sarah: You know, that’s it. That’s all...and that’s what I had to tell myself all the time. “Sarah, you’re looking at oral sex and you’re judging it. How can I be more curious about how it can apply to me and my relationship in my intimate relationship with my husband?” Like, what does that look like, you know? And so [laughs] it really is simple. But it is so profound to me, and it’s carried me the last three years. And that’s why I really hone-in on it in my book. Waking up women to understand, “quit judging it so much,”

27:34 Daniel: Absolutely love it.

27:34 Sarah: “and look at it from a place of curiosity.”

27:35 Daniel: And I think you see that journey as you go through this, like, starting in...what chapter is this? Page 100 or so. You start talking about loving yourself from the inside out. And you do a full inventory: “what do I lack? What am I insecure about?” (I’m putting some of my own words to this, but…) you take the individual through this process and I think that’s key. absolutely key. So, yes, the answer is simple, but boy, the process can be painful. That’s something that I actually warn my clients when I do this similar type of self-inventory. I have them often review themselves: where did they start--I like the word you used, stop judging it, and just learn from it. And I have people start to do this, is “stop judging your body, in fact, look at yourself. You think you have a fat tummy, who told you that? Who defined that for you?”

28:28 Sarah: Exactly.

28:29 Daniel: “Who took away your agency to keep you from actually looking at yourself in the way you should? Who defined it?” And they’ll go through this emotional process, “oh my goodness, that first boy I dated, he made fun of me or he poked me in the tummy and ever since then, I’ve been insecure. I’m not gonna let that dude take away from my agency. I’m gonna choose how to view my body.” And you kinda do a similar thing here.

28:53 Sarah: Yeah.

28:54 Daniel: Tell us a little more about that.

28:55 Sarah: Yeah, so, this is actually my second book. [laughs] I wrote a book 5 years ago called, MindStrength for Women. And it was all about just loving ourselves and overcoming this idea that we’re not enough and we're not good enough, not smart enough, and all these things, right? Of course I, at that time, I did like, I’d learned a lot about myself. And so the crazy part to all that whole story was, I felt amazing and went through a physical change, emotional change, and all these other things, but I kept sex hidden up in the corner, you know? Like in this closet, you know? So when I actually brought sex in, into the light, right? Now I felt like I’d become this whole person, and then like, a wholly unique being. 

29:54 Sarah: And I talk about this term called “sexy confidence” in my book, and how as women, it’s not so much about our body or anything of that nature. It’s about, how do we walk into a room, and how do we make people feel? What kind of energy are we bringing into the room? Is this a loving environment? And this is where I kinda had to do this with my husband, too. Because, when you’re in the bedroom, as women, we start to...like, if we even put on a piece of lingerie or something, we start to immediately judge our body that it’s not looking so amazing. 

30:35 Sarah: And I talk about, when I’m with women and stuff, I talk about this idea of like, you know, there’s this...we as women get into serious judgement, but when we can come from learning to love ourselves from the way God sees us (because obviously that’s important), that we can be able to be at one with our husbands, even. And not focus so much on the belly fat that’s hanging out when we’re trying to get on top of him, you know? And just like, how we can emotionally connect instead of looking at our bodies and judging every nook and cranny that we don’t like, kind of thing.

31:25 Daniel: Love that.  Now, you jumped into something later on, about how women need novelty. I thought this was interesting. I believe it. I’m one who likes to shatter myths out there. But the prevailing thought is, men need novelty. Women want consistency. Tell me more about this. 

31:45 Sarah: Yeah.

31:46 Daniel: I think this is fascinating. I don't think anybody else is addressing it, and I’ve read a lot of books, so tell me a little about your discovery there.

31:56 Sarah: Yeah. Well, I think [...] I do believe women, we do need novelty. We just don’t think we need it [laughs]. I don’t know if that makes sense. We do love,

32:11 Daniel: Yes

32:12 Sarah: we like change. I don’t like the same position every time, I mean, anybody else? I mean, once I actually, was the--I mean, yes, I did missionary position for years, trust me, I know. But now that I’ve educated myself and I’ve found other ways to, you know, “quote, unquote” “sized up the bedroom” I actually do thrive on change in the bedroom. It keeps the spark alive and it creates more novelty, you know?

32:43 Daniel: Well, I think that’s important,

32:45 Sarah: Yeah

32:46 Daniel: because I think a lot of men get criticized because they want something new and that’s scary for their partners, but I--

32:51 Sarah: Yeah

32:52 Daniel: You’re realizing, part of the problem is you wanted it to be changed up, you wanted it exciting, you wanted it novel. And I think that’s part of the discovery for a lot of women in discovering their desire is, “wow, I’m realizing I’m not as vanilla as I thought I was.”

33:07 Sarah: Yeah.

33:08 Daniel: “Where will this end?” Were you concerned with that? Did you feel you were gonna go into desires and passions and things that were forbidden for you? What was that experience like for you?

33:19 Sarah: Yeah. Well, of course in the beginning--because, you know, my shame was still enveloped around me in certain points where it would rise up, you know? But then I’d have to open my eyes, like, “Sarah, quit judging it again!” You know? But at the same time, I realized how we can add just more experiences that we haven’t had necessarily before, in like, the safety of our own couple relationship.

33:55 Daniel: Just going back to the concept of not judging it and allow it to flow naturally. 

34:01 Sarah: Yeah.

34:02 Daniel: As Emily Nagoski says, don’t put on the brakes. Just...

34:05 Sarah: Yeah, the brakes. I love that analogy, too. Oh my gosh, shes...yeah. Don’t put on the brakes, keep the accelerator going, because, you know. Sometimes, you don’t know if you’re even going to like it. So, quit judging that you’re not going to like it before you even start it, right? And allow yourself to receive. Okay, that’s another thing. Oh my gosh. As women, we give, give, give all day long, to everybody and everything. All the time. Right? So when I was like, “Sarah, you deserve to receive. You get to receive pleasure, you get to receive these different avenues of novelty, and this is okay for you.” Like, once again, I [laughs] I’ve had to coach myself. I do thisl ike, mental inventory in my head before I have sex with my husband. Like, “Sarah, we can do this. It’s fine. This is something that we’ve talked about, we’ve had discussions about this, we feel comfortable that this is something we want to choose to do and explore, and let’s be open to that.” So, yeah. I'm really good at coaching myself now.

35:19 Daniel: Yeah, it sounds like it. Sounds like you’ve come a long way in just three years. I like the other concept you’ve shared about sex drives, desire level. The differences aren’t the problem. Share with the audience what you meant by that.

35:35 Sarah: Differences aren’t the problem. We label ourselves when we first get married [laughs]. Now, like, you know as I’ve learned, not all men are higher desire partners, okay? Right?

35:49 Daniel: Not at all, right.

35:50 Sarah: Right. And so, we are really quick to label who’s higher, who’s lower, you know? And we, there’s a …. do you want me to quote books in here?

36:05 Daniel: Absolutely! Tell your story. Yep.

36:08 Sarah: Okay. One of the books, Passion Paradox, have you heard of that book?

36:13 Daniel: Actually, no, I haven’t read nor have I heard of it.

36:16 Sarah: Okay, I’m trying to think of the author right now, but it was...it’s like, an old book. It was like....it’s old. But anyway, there’s this...he talks about this whole idea of passion. Because, sometimes like, as women, we label ourselves as lower desire, say that we are, right? And we view the partner as the higher desire. But there’s different ways of expressing and showing passion to each other. And it doesn’t necessarily have to be just like a sexual thing. Sometimes, in different seasons of our lives, we kinda ebb and flow, and you know, go from one extreme to another or something. And I think this whole idea that we put labels is unfortunate, because I chose to give myself that label for all those years, and I clung on to it. And I would just view my husband, like, “you just want sex all the time. And I’m just gonna sit here, and just kinda vent to you that I don’t wanna have it, because I’ve already labelled myself that I don’t want it.”

37:30 Daniel: As opposed to learning how to meet the needs of each other.

37:33 Sarah: Yeah, yeah.

37:34 Daniel: I think that theme is so important throughout your book. I refer to it as breaking the culture of sexual silence, and I love that you hit on it throughout the entirety of your book. Especially, I believe, in chapter 14 talking about it. Even if I don’t know a lot about it, talk about it. Talk about it. Talk about everything you know about sex, and become comfortable with it. That is so important. As you learned early on with your mom, and with other friends, you couldn’t talk about it. And that is one of the biggest desire killers and barriers to education. So, learning how to break that culture of silence around sexuality, even when you don’t know fully what you’re talking about, start to share. That’s what we do. As kids, we talk about things we don’t know, and then parents correct us. People inform us. You go into it non-judgmentally, again, another thing that you carry throughout the book. Absolutely wonderful. You want to tell us a little bit about how you...what that was like for you as you realized you’re in this process, you’re learning. What were some of the fears, hesitations, or positive experiences you had with sharing freely your knowledge?

38:45 Sarah: Ok, so, you know I’m reading all these books, right? And consuming everything that I could. And I just, I remember always just like walking out, like, in public, you know, in Target or wherever, and seeing all these women. And I”m like, “oh. If they only knew. oh if they only knew.” Right? [laughs] and there’s a point where…’cause I truly believe I’ve obviously come to a place where I--and you’ve seen this in my book--I’m a realist. Like, I really share the dark sides of me, and my hang-ups and everything, and I’m okay with it. I've come to a place where I don’t have this fear of judgement of what other people might think of me, because I’ve realized that the more I share, the more respect I get from people. And so, as I was reading all these things, and I’m going out into public and I see all these women, and I’m just wondering, “I wonder if she’s like...if she was like me.” Because I’m now, not. I don’t really...it’s hard for me, sometimes, to even take myself back, even three years ago, to where I was. Because I’m so much more happier now. But sometimes i have to take myself there so that I can be, you know, relatable, to other women, right? So, of course in our LDS culture, [laughs] I have definitely … I’ve lost friendships. I’ll be honest.

40:18 Daniel: What do you mean? I think I know what you’re talking about there, because I’ve experience the same, but share with the audience what that means. Just because you’re being passionate and open about sexuality, you lost friends?

40:28 Sarah: Yeah.

40:29 Daniel: What happened there?

40:30 Sarah: Yeah, so...just in small conversations, or I might have written like a post or something on facebook about a book that I was reading. And then it just rubs somebody the wrong way, you know? And I've actually had a few friends who’ve vocally come and told me that they don’t agree with what I’m talking about and learning about. And that’s fine. It was of course hard to hear, ‘cause it’s like a blow. It’s like this form of rejection that you don’t want to ever experience in your life. But at the same time, there was like, 30+ women behind me saying “thank you. I learned so much from you,” you know? And so, it’s just our human nature to cling-on to those one or two people that give you that negative comment, right? But it definitely propelled me to keep sharing, because I know how my life has changed because of it. And my marriage has changed because of it. And I can’t deny it. 

41:43 Sarah: So as I’ve opened up about it, and talked to people within my neighborhood or community, like I just know that I am making strides with people. I actually, just yesterday, I had a friend who had finally come around. I’ve been talking to her for like, since I started reading books, and just recently she was like, “Sarah, I think I’m ready.” You know? And you just have to kinda wait for those people to come around, and they will, eventually. And they’ll realize just how powerful this can be, when they can open and be more curious to see what their life can be like if they chose to look at it with a different perspective. 

42:34 Daniel: Absolutely.

42:35 Sarah: So yeah.

42:35 Daniel: In other words, you’re not pushing your narrative.

42:36 Sarah: No.

42:38 Daniel: People know what you know.

42:38 Sarah: No, yeah.

42:40 Daniel: Because, you’re open about it. And you’re waiting for them to come and seek you out.

42:43 Sarah: Yeah.

42:44 Daniel: That’s excellent.

42:45 Sarah: Exactly. yeah, just kinda wait for them and whenever they’re ready, I’ll be there with open arms to teach them and to guide them through their own experience. The crazy part is [laughs] I have no desire to be a sex therapist like yourself, or you know, go and be a professor or anything of that nature. I just love learning about it. I feel like, I don’t know, I guess people can kind of resonate more with a girl off the street I guess first, and then I can guide them to therapists or whoever else they need help with, right? Because I obviously don’t have all the tools, but I’m their starting point, you know? And that’s what I love about me being open about it, is that I can be their starting point and then they can move from there to seek more professional help if they need it, you know?

43:41 Daniel: Absolutely. What a wonderful theme that you’ve carried out through the book. I think it’s been wonderfully done, I think you’ve communicated well. Are there...as we wrap up here, is there anything else about the book or your experiences that you feel is important for the audience to know about you, and your journey, or maybe possibly the journey that they’re going through?

44:02 Sarah: Oh yeah, I mean, as you [...] just, the book, in and of itself, it just breaks down so many things. You know, out there in our audience, you  might have someone who feels like they are broken, right? Or, they feel like, that there’s no hope in their marriage. We didn’t even touch on porn, that’s a whole-nother enchilada in and of itself…

44:28 Daniel: So, I… hold off on that, because I--

44:31 Sarah: [laughs]

44:31 Daniel: I love that you refer to porn the way you did in your book, as a compulsion, as a temptation, as a potential device in a marriage or [pauses] divisiveness in a marriage. 

44:45 Sarah: Yeah.

44:46 Daniel: And I love the language that you used in there, and I would be interested in exploring that a little more, if you’d like. Do you want to tell us a little bit more about it, and why you included it?

44:56 Sarah: Yeah. Well, obviously from personal experience, it was not me, it was my husband’s, right? I think it’s just, he actually, it was the [....]  I remember the day, and I’m sure a lot of men and women here can remember the day that their spouse came to them with this news, right? Or they found out in some other way, right? That’ll be a day that you won’t ever forget. 

45:24 Sarah: But, that day, he came and approached me, and it was during this time that I had finished writing my first book. And I was, like I said before, I was in a really good place, and just felt pretty good about life because I was working on myself. And I think that’s what’s key here, in this chapter particularly, is, whether man or woman, right? Really focus on, what are you doing in the relationship? What can you do to better yourself, to become a better version of yourself? And that’s kinda where i was at that point, luckily. 

46:01 Sarah: And that’s when Trent felt comfortable to actually approach me and tell me about his porn addiction. Because, you know, he had these fears that I would leave him and all these things, right? Like everybody might have. And he came, and he told me, and it was just this, you know, gut-wrenching kind of feeling. And the first question that came into my mind, “what’s wrong with me? Why does he feel like he has to do this? I can’t believe he’s done this. He’s this amazing man, how did porn get a hold of him?” Kind of thing. And so, back then, I was doing a lot of video journaling, and so after he told me, I just was like, “kay, just hold on a second, I need to go into my closet and kinda think about this.” 

46:48 Sarah: So, I went to my closet and for ten minutes I just kind of, just like, talked to myself. Like, just basically went through, in my head, what I’d just heard. And, it’s interesting, I still have this video and I treasure it, but...so you’ll notice (well, you won’t notice, because you’re not watching it), but in the first five minutes, I’m just like, processing, like, “why him? Why me?” Everything right? This pity party. And then, the last five minutes, I just kinda make this shift. It was God telling me, “Sarah, he’s a son of God.” And that’s all I heard. That’s all I heard, and I knew that I needed to walk with him in this journey. 

47:34 Sarah: I was not to fix him, because I can’t fix him, right? But I can walk with him to, you know, figure out how to help him navigate, you know, and how to get the help that he needed kind of stuff. And so, that was [...] once again, it’s a simple thing, but that was the one thing that really carried me through that experience. Just recognizing that he’s a son of God and together we can work through the porn addiction, and we can come out on top. And we definitely have. And it’s been an incredible experience. But there’s definitely been pain. It hasn’t been easy. But, there’s definitely a light at the end of the tunnel.

48:22 Daniel: A lot of people are listening, saying, “okay, yeah, you just shared he just dumped this big thing on you.” And if I remember right, you even equate pornography to adultery, or cheating, on the relationship, am I remembering correctly?

48:39 Sarah: Yeah.

48:39 Daniel: That’s a very big view to have. One that, generally, is very divisive in a relationship. And you also refer to it as an addiction. And if anybody’s been in my group, they know how sensitive I am about that terminology. 

48:54 Sarah: Yeah.

48:54 Daniel: You actually went and learned a lot from Cameron Staley,

48:58: Oh, man.

48:59 Daniel: about mindfulness, which is not an addiction approach, it’s a very mindful approach.

49:03Sarah: Yeah.

49:03 Daniel: Which is very much in harmony with the theme of your book: non-judgemental, non-rigid around these things but being more mindful and self-aware.

49:15 Sarah: Self-awareness is huge, yeah.

49:17 Daniel: And I think that led you to this [...] because usually, the concepts of addiction don’t lead you into the direction that you’re talking about, in fact, it leads you in a very opposite direction. But I love that mindfulness, and fortunately, meeting up with Cameron, or whatever you learned from him, it led you to this idea.

49:34 Sarah: Yeah.

49:35 Daniel: One of the concepts that you shared there was, and I’m gonna put it in my terminology: “I don’t view sex as a punishment or reward, I view it as communcation.” And you talk about there, “yes, it’s not your fault, and you as the wife, you’re not responsible for his behavior. However, why are you punishing him by not giving him sex? Is that your because of your insecurity?” I realize I’m butchering your words, I’m putting in mine.

49:59 Sarah: Yeah.

50:00 Daniel: And correct me if I’m misrepresenting your train of thought there. But, you're saying, “embrace them. Don’t withhold sex because of mabye, your insecurities.”

50:09 Sarah: Yep, that’s the worst thing you could do, is to withhold it.

50:10 Daniel: Absolutely, absolutely. Although, giving them sex, you shouldn’t have this expecation: now, he’s gonna be safe, you know? In fact, I think you pointed that out, if I remember right.

50:20 Sarah: Yes, I did.

50:21 Daniel: You said somethinglike, “okay, I’m gonna give him all”--because some women do that--”I’m gonna give him all the sex he needs so he avoids it.”

50:26 Sarah: Then he won’t even go look, yeah.

50:27 Daniel: And that’s a reward or punishment approach, as opposed to communication and connecting.

50:33 Sarah: Yes.

50:33 Daniel: And so, ironically, taking that other approach of withholding or giving too much, is very much objectification, and divisive in the relationship. It’s not connected. And so I love that you embrace that idea, of “it’s not my responsibility, but I’m not going to miss this opportunity to connect with my partner. Because I view porn in this context”--whatever it is-- “I’m not going to let that get in my way of connecting with my partner.” I thought that was beautiful.

51:02 Sarah: Yeah, just finding that middle ground. I mean, I remember coming home and asking anything I could about porn. Because, I had no idea what that world was like. None. And so, it blew my mind to see, like, wow. I really don’t know anything! But at the same time, like, let’s come together and have conversations to see, like, how we can navigate this new normal. Come to a middle ground to connect. I mean, we uh, this could be a whole-nother podcast. That definitely, that experience...I mean, it didn’t take me on my sex journey, because I found out about this, probably like 5 years ago. 

51:51 Daniel: You mean, his use of porn?

51:54 Sarah: Yes, his use of porn. And so, there were still a couple years in between there where I was just trying to like, you know, I’d have [...] our communication was better, it wasn’t the best as it is now, but we were definitely communicating. And I wasn't that one that was like, you know, denying him and like, that kind of thing. Because, I was kind of understanding how, you know, I needed to create this middle ground to see how we can evolve into something better. And so then, when I finally accepted like, “okay, I need to work on my sexuality,” then that took us to a whole-nother level. And he’s been amazing and [pauses], yeah. He doesn’t have those compulsions anymore and even if he does, he comes and talks to me about it, you know? And so, we’ve created a very healthy relationship in regards to porn. 

52:52 Daniel: Sarah, that is wonderful. I would actually really love having you on again, at a future time, to talk about that. 

52:58 Sarah: Yeah.

53:00 Daniel: Again, the book is Underneath it All...You’re Naked. Wonderful theme throughout the book. I think you did an amazing job with it, and I think the audience would really benefit from it. Thank you so much for coming on.

53:11 Sarah: Thank you. Aw, yeah, it’s been a pleasure. I appreciate you letting me have an opportunity to share my story.

53:18 Daniel: Thank you.

53:18 Sarah: It’s always something I like to talk about [laughs].

53:20 Daniel: Oh, clearly,

53:21 Sarah: It changed my life. Like, literally changed my life.

53:24 Daniel: Yeah. Your journey has been--

53:25 Sarah: Saved me.

53:26 Daniel: amazing. Thank you so much, Sarah.

53:28 Sarah: You’re welcome.

[music]

Is Masturbation a Sin? Mike Frazier Asks the Hard Questions

Full Transcript: 0:00:00.0 Narrator: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married, Latter-Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy, Daniel is a Marriage and Family Therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.

[music]

0:00:26.3 Mike Frazier: Alright men, welcome to today's episode. I've got a special guest for us today. This is Daniel Burgess. So he is a family therapist that runs a family therapy, and helps couples and individuals with their marriages, and I met him in his Facebook group, Improving Intimacy, and used to be called Mormon marriages. Now it's called In Latter Day Saint marriages.

0:00:52.7 Daniel Burgess: I complied.

[laughter]

0:00:55.3 MF: So yeah, anything else you want the audience know about you Daniel?

0:01:00.0 DB: That's great, I love that. Yeah, come check it out.

0:01:03.2 MF: Yeah, yeah he does great work. And I've really enjoyed his...

0:01:07.6 DB: Thank you.

0:01:08.6 MF: Yeah, his group and the stuff he's doing. So yeah, so today we're talking about a more sensitive topic, at least in the LDS Community, which is masturbation, and Daniel has done a lot of study about this, a lot of work on it, it was coming into our group, actually, Daniel, that kinda got me thinking about it in a different way. And was really a good journey for me.

0:01:35.9 DB: Wonderful.

0:01:36.8 MF: Actually, so I appreciate your work on that, so I guess what I wanted to start with, and I think this is really the big question on most LDS people's minds, is whether masturbation is actually a sin or not, and when I asked that question, I wanted to look up what sin actually was. And so I think this is a good definition an immoral act that's considered to be a transgression against divine law, meaning there's a law that says, no masturbation. And then when you break that, you are breaking that law. So, yeah. Thoughts on that.

0:02:14.0 DB: That's a great question. It's one that I get quite frequently and to kinda set up the answer here, I just did an interview for my podcast Improving Intimacy for Latter-Day Saint relationships with Kari Ferguson, who wrote the book, The OCD Mormon. And the reason why I bring that up is a big part of our discussion is something that I've seen, definitely in clients who tend to ask this question is rigidity in their thinking around spirituality and sin, and how that negatively affects ironically, maybe even paradoxically, our spirituality, a fabulous book a wonderful person, and we explore those thoughts in deep and I'll reference you to that for further discussion. But in short, I love that definition that I learned at least on my mission was, Anything acting against the will of God is sin, and sin is essentially a guide for us to draw closer to Him, not to sin, to draw closer to Him, but to avoid sin or things that separate us from God, and when we can think about in that context, we can now see self-mastery in a different view. We even talked about transgression, Joseph Fielding Smith says there's a big difference between transgression and sin, transgression is one of the things that we as humans learn to be better at that heavenly Father expects us to make mistakes, that's why the atone is there.

0:03:42.4 DB: Now, to answer that question, is masturbation a sin? I don't wanna sound avoidant of the answer, but it really depends. It really depends on the person. Is this drawing you closer to God? Is this helping you understand your body, is this creating better self-awareness, self-mastery, is it creating peace in your life? If it isn't, then that needs to be explored and understood better, that's the whole purpose of this life is to master our minds and our bodies, and what does that look like? Especially when we're dealing with different biology, and sometimes people say you should never masturbate. Well, that may be true for that person, that may not be a biological need, or when I use the word need here, I'm talking about experiences that provide enjoyment and pleasure, of course, we could go a whole lifetime without masturbating and not die. And I've heard people use that argument, you won't die, so you don't need it. Well, then we could go to Maslow's hierarchy of needs. We won't die without people loving us in our life, but our life will be pretty miserable, right?

[laughter]

0:04:50.2 DB: There are cases actually that children have died out of neglect, of love, and that's true, but I think the point is, there is... I think when we look at this in a very rigid way, is sin black and white, we kinda cross in this line of obsessive compulsive thought process of or scrupulosity, and focus more on the growth in our relationship with ourself and the Lord.

0:05:16.9 MF: Yeah, I love that. I love that idea of those questions that you posed, of... Instead of, Is this sin? Which like you said, is about, oh right wrong did I follow the rule right or did I not follow the rule right. It's like, No. Is this bringing me closer to God, is this helping me enjoy my life more? I think once you're married, an important question with however you're using your sexuality is, is this bringing me closer to my spouse or not? And I think with that too, you mentioned, I think for women, this happens maybe sometimes more than guys where that exploration process, maybe it hasn't happened as much as it has maybe with some guys before marriage, and actually exploring that and figuring out what works for you can be a gift to yourself and to your marriage. Thoughts on that.

0:06:22.6 DB: Yeah, absolutely, and I think that's the main goal, and that's why I set up my group in proving intimacy in Latter-day Saint relationships is for us, what are we doing in our relationships, our intimate relationships that we can improve on to draw us closer to God that is the underlining and the core focus here, how can we understand and learn God and draw closer to Him and in our relationships? And so that could involve... Often we sacrifice or we ignore, or we neglect our sexual self and don't really explore and understand that, like we do the other aspects of our spiritual life to draw closer to God, and so this is very much a negotiation a discussion with our partner and with the Lord, and as long as it's in that confined, I believe it's healthy, whatever that decision is, I have seen masturbation benefit and reward relationships like no other thing has in their life. It provides options. It provides a discussion, and I think as long as you're taking it to the Lord, and you address it with your spouse and you come up with what works for you, then you're doing what the Lord wants you to do, drawing closer to Him and your spouse.

0:07:37.2 MF: Yeah. Awesome, so with that, to look at the other side of this, because I think some people hearing that, they're gonna think, Oh well then you know that I can do whatever I want, like if I wanna go have sex with a bunch of other people and we're both okay with that, then that should be fine. Right. So what would you say to that thought? Well, you know, I prayed about it. And that was my answer. It's fine to go do that.

0:08:15.6 DB: Yeah, well, it's interesting 'cause I heard kind of two different comments there's one, kind of this non-monogamous exploration, as long as you agree with it, it's fine, and the other one is anything... Well, I guess they're kinda the same thing. Anything goes now, and the first thought I would have or question is, This seems to fall under this black and white thinking is either it's absolutely right or it's absolutely wrong, and I think the Lord is definitely, at least in our day, made some clear guidelines in the temple, we specifically commit to each other and in this relationship, and now does that mean anything goes or not? I think there's definitely a constraint there, we've committed very specifically to each other, that we will figure this out between each other and the Lord, I don't think there's a cart blanche there that says, yeah, anything else on your relationship is okay, the purpose, like I was pointing out is, is it drawing you closer to your spouse and to the Lord, do you feel like you're honoring your temple covenants that you specifically made? Now, when we talk about masturbation and things that help improve desire towards each other. I think those things are open for discussion and prayer with Heavenly Father.

0:09:43.5 DB: Now, going back to your question, some can argue, Well, we've both decided we feel closer to each other when we could explore outside of the relationship, and I'll be frank, if that's what you have decided, I personally don't think that's what the Lord has said, and I don't see any justification for that. And so I'm not gonna tell somebody that they got false revelation, that's not my job as a therapist, my job is to help them understand how to live a healthier life, and so there's an argument for everything, and I could totally see where people can... And I've seen it, well, I'm gonna go and do whatever. And when I hear that phrase though, that triggers this kind of black and white thinking, going from one extreme of rigidity to another, and I would push on that, I would really explore that, is that really what you're doing? Are you going from a... I'm gonna just say kind of like a repressed or rigid thinking to, wow, the doors just blow open, I'm gonna do whatever I want. That would be a concern to me, and I would explore that first. That's a concern to me.

0:10:52.9 MF: Yeah, I think that you brought up something super important, I think they're both basically immature reactions.

0:11:00.3 DB: Excellent, Yeah.

0:11:00.8 MF: Yeah, it's like, Oh, either somebody has to tell me everything I have to do, or nobody can tell me anything that I have to do, like they're both pretty immature versus saying Like look, Okay, here's my read of the scriptures, or if that's what I believe we're kind of assuming someone's active LDS or Christian, like trying to do what God wants them to do.

0:11:27.3 MF: And if you come into it with that in mind and you're like, Hey, I read the scripture, I did... If you went to the temple, I made these promises. I'm gonna be just faithful to my wife, so I wanna keep it within that, but then within that, like you said, growing, developing that maturity to say, "Yeah, this does help. And this does not help." One of the things I like is," by their fruits, you shall know them", and I think that so applies here, if you try it and the fruit is good, good. If you try it and the fruit is not good, you say, Okay, that was an experiment, wasn't good, we're gonna cut that one off so, yeah.

0:12:14.1 DB: Yeah. Fair points.

0:12:16.5 MF: Yeah, so for those [laughter].. Maybe the satisfies of the more OCD Mormon folks out there. I know you've done quite a bit of research on How it sort of the... The church has looked at masturbation over time? And kind of how that has shifted, sort of back and forth, maybe you could just give us certainly a brief kind of summary of how that's gone.

0:12:43.0 DB: Yeah, really, really quick summary here. There's very little documentation from the restoration from 1830 to about 1890, we're getting more and more, as the Joseph Smith papers are in development and it's exciting. Public access, a lot of people go to it. When I was researching it, I had to spend hours and hours and in archives and trying to find these documentation. There really isn't much. In fact, we had a very... If I could use the word progressive view of intimacy. We were a very different church. We viewed sexual relationships as beautiful. And in a time that orgasms were viewed as dangerous and lethal. They literally believed that, "Each time you had an orgasm, you took years off your life." This was that idea back then, that really didn't end until about 1920s, maybe a little earlier from that. And we had a very opposing view to that, not... In a very positive way. And we only start to see... Even if I could say it's negative comments about masturbation, only in the context of serious transgressions where people are having... I wanna be appropriate for the show. Let's just say sexual abuse issues. Let's just keep it in those terms. And there's ideas that were prominent at that time, not just in the church, but because we're a melting pot of religions at the restoration.

0:14:22.8 DB: We have a lot of traditional cultural ideas being brought in thinking that masturbation led to certain behaviors including homosexuality and to other sexual transgressions. And so the only things you can really find that I'm aware of now and I've researched as extensively as you mentioned, is in meeting notes where some brethren will say it's because they did this and they would reference masturbation, and this is where it would lead. There was never any official stance against masturbation. In fact, it was about 1920 that there was a conference address of some guest who says, "We approach sexuality", and I can provide these links in references to you offline and you could include.

0:15:06.2 MF: Yeah.

0:15:06.6 DB: But, saying," I'm impressed that you Latter day Saints can talk about sexuality, including masturbation so openly", which blew my mind. I was like, really? They... I mean not only to recognize that, but to even make it part of a public address. And then in 1930, the Relief Society president at the time was called to provide mental health guidance to the church. And she provided, Amy Lyman Brown, it provided these lessons, and one of those lessons was "Parents, don't over-react to your children masturbating. You'll cause depression, anxiety, even suicidal thoughts." very fascinating. It wasn't until about the '40s that President Clark started to interject other ideas. And long story short, my interpretation of that was because of the Kinsey books came out on human sexuality and the father of the sexual revolution. And I think the church was trying to do something to differentiate ourselves from that movement. Which I both understand, but also see kind of a shift in the opposite direction.

0:16:11.8 DB: And it's only at that time that we see really negative comments and emphasis on the dangers of masturbation and emphasizing it's a sin. And then we see this changing in the mid-80s, due to seeing, Amy Lyman Brown was right. We're seeing an increase of depression, suicidal thoughts, and negative behavior and unhealthy behavior. And so since the 80s, we've been seeing a more healthy shift towards... Look it... This doesn't cause homosexuality, it doesn't cause all these things that we believe they did. And it is part of a healthy development. And so they haven't specifically come out and reversed some of those comments for strength of youth manuals and whatnot. But we definitely see a shift of them eliminating those phrases and terminologies out of the manuals and handbooks and seeing a more positive shift towards... Look, figure this out between You and the Lord, especially in marriage. So that's a really, really horrible summary, but...

[overlapping conversation]

0:17:15.7 MF: I thought it was great. [laughter]

0:17:16.4 DB: Okay, good, good.

0:17:17.6 MF: I don't know, it's great.

0:17:19.3 DB: Very short and precise.

0:17:19.8 MF: Well, yeah, I think the way that... After I read through your materials, when I looked at it, it was like... It's okay. Or it's even part of normal development.

0:17:30.2 DB: Was being addressed. Yeah.

0:17:30.8 MF: Yeah, to bad bad bad, and now we're kind of coming back up to... I think, like you said, President Nelson's really focusing on personal revelation and using this... This can be a place where you really can use personal revelation and you really can look at What are the fruits of exploring that, of looking at how sexuality is part of who you are.

0:18:03.4 DB: Yeah. And let me add real quick. One thing when we analyze developments in the church, whether doctrinal, History or whatever. We make a mistake of seeing things in isolation and we gotta realize there was a lot going on during that period of '40s. We had one of the fastest booming growth of the church, to this date from the '40s to the '70s. And so the brethren were also trying to address How do we address a growing church? They created the department of correlation and everything else, and so they tried to standardize teachings across an entire world of membership. And so there's bound to be learning, lessons learned and things not perfectly instituted. And so I think it's important for us to take ourselves out of the vacuum and realize thousands of variables are involved here. It's not just is something... We go back to that rigidity, is something right or wrong? And I think what we're doing is now we're learning, How do we teach a worldwide right church? Not just the Salt Lake Church anymore.

0:19:07.3 MF: Yeah, awesome, and super helpful. I think, like you mentioned, it's not so much, but we're trying to grow out of the even home teaching like, Oh, once a month, go, go, go, and that's like Minister, meaning, take care of these people and use your judgment and your... Like what these texts mean...

0:19:32.8 DB: Excellent example.

0:19:33.8 MF: In addressing that but I think with sexuality, we're starting to see some of that as well, there are structures, there are lines, I think being sexually faithful to your wife is a pretty clear line or husband, right, as far as an actual commitment or an actual law that God's given us, but then outside of that saying, Okay, how do I... Like, sexual is part of who I am. It's weird, but Jennifer Finlayson-fife talks about this, how God is a sexual being and heavenly mother's a sexual being, it's weird for us to think about, but we're created in their image, they have that too. And how do they use that... One of the things that you work with people who struggle with, pornography too and want to use less or whatever, and one of the things that I have encouraged people to ask themselves, it's like, Okay, I have my sexuality, like How do I want to use that in the world?

0:20:44.1 DB: Yes.

0:20:45.6 MF: And then that becomes the standard instead of, Oh, can I do this or can I do that? It's like, No. So for me, my own statement is I want to use my sexuality to connect deeply with and have fun with my wife, and so now I look and say, Okay, is this helping me get there or is it detracting from that and that's been much more useful than going down this OCD.

0:21:10.2 DB: Yes.

0:21:10.6 MF: OCD track.

0:21:12.7 DB: Especially for the men. I wanna emphasize this for us men, one of the negative consequences of how we've treated sexuality over the years, and I'm not just speaking church culture, but it definitely was reinforced by church culture, is men talking about sexuality is synonymous with creepiness and weird and dangerous, and we've unfortunately associated words like lust as a negative thing, and I realize like Matthew 5-27 uses the word lust, and this is a perfect example of how we've had a false narrative created for us and this is what I mean, Matthew 5-27 is actually misinterpretation. The word actually should be covet, not lust lust is actually that specific word translated correctly is used as a positive throughout scripture, in Luke 2:22-15, Matthew 13-17, Luke 15-16 and Luke 16-21, all describe Christ Himself lusting after something, whether it's the Passover or righteousness, or whatever. And I realize it's a little nuance, but I think it's an important nuance because I often hear, I've got to avoid lust.

0:22:32.0 DB: And why is this important? Because he emphasizes it's scripturally based, lust means to desire beauty, to desire something good, God like covet is negative, it's not Christ-focused, it's not, God focused, which has resulted us men specifically. Let me emphasize why I'm bringing this up too 'cause it's a conversation I frequently have with colleagues and clients is, you may be wondering, and I realize I'm blending a little bit of topics here, but bear with me, is you may be wondering, Well, am I rigid in my thinking No, I just wanna be perfect. Well, that's one indicator that you might actually have rigid scrupulosity thinking, and the other is that my mind just went blank sorry. That you can't... Oh, that's what it was. You can't pray to God about your desires. And I see this more with men than with women, and this is a constant paradox, it's like women who speak up about sexuality are praised for their courageousness. Men who talk up about their sexuality, or I pray to God about this will be perceived as creepy or weird, or we may feel creepy or weird, I can't talk to God about my sexuality. That may be an indicator that you have rigid thinking around this, if our heavenly parents desire us to have sexual feelings and desires, we should be able to freely talk to them about it, and if we can't...

0:24:03.0 DB: That's the negative narrative, I believe that we've been taught as men, and if we want sexual relationships, we're looked at as pawning or begging or sex focus or lusting after, no, it's beautiful, we desire to have sexual relations with our spouse, and we need to speak up and break that narrative and rewrite how we talk about that and how that talk is being perceived, I think that's why a lot of men default to the joking or the silliness or whatever, because that's what they've been told to do and who they are, and we need to take back that narrative and like the women can, I wanna talk about sexuality and be praised for it, it's a beautiful, healthy thing, I desire to be a sexual being, and that's not weird. And I think that's something we men should remember.

0:25:00.3 MF: No, a great point, great point. Yeah, I think when we look at owning that and directing that, it's a powerful force, powerful energy, and deciding how you wanna direct... I love what you said about taking it to God saying, Look, I have these desires, like what's the way to direct them, like and Alma talks about bridling our passions, it doesn't mean that you stop your passions or kill your passions, it's... No, you bridle... Let me direct them to where you want to go.

0:25:38.4 DB: And one last thought on this whole idea of what it looks like to desire. One of the things that I find is beautiful in my relationship with my wife, and I think is appropriate, is we are able to say "That person looks beautiful", male or female. She's attractive. He's attractive. And our relationship is not threatened. Our trust in our relationship is solid. It isn't dependent on whether or not we speak up our desires or not. And that's a false narrative, that's another false narrative is, now in context, right, if, for example, trauma history, we've gotta respect and understand that context. We can't just say, "Tough, I don't care about your trauma, or I don't care about your insecurities." I have worked with a client in the past where the wife acknowledged she has huge amounts of insecurities, and because her husband... Her husband was looking at an Instagram model, not even pornography in its truest sense, and he acknowledged it, he's never had a history of anything. She's required him to purge himself of any of that desire versus her looking at her self and building on her issues around insecurity. It's a team effort. You both need a partner in this experience, as I think you know and understand, but when it becomes a one-sided thing, blaming a partner, and there's clearly breaking the line, right?

0:27:08.1 DB: It's interesting though, when a woman says they desire or they think something that's beautiful, it could be totally fine and not a threat to your relationship. But if a man says that, this is that false narrative, it's impossible for a man to see something that's beautiful, acknowledge it, and still have a fully committed cleaving unto their partner relationship. And we're told often that that's not possible. We're not as simple creatures on and off switches as I think we've been taught. We also desire connection and monogamy. We just also are trying to understand how to express and experience desire.

0:27:52.8 MF: Yeah. No, I like that idea a lot. And I think there's... When you do get to a level of sexual intimacy that is really connected, where you are sharing who you are at a deep level with this person, and they're sharing with you. And that's just something that... When we talk about save yourself for marriage, we teach our kids hey it's like save yourself for marriage. Why do you do that? Because ideally, when you have sex with your wife, you are sharing your whole soul with that person. This is who you want to be with. This is who you want to raise a family with. This is who you want to spend your life with. And that all comes through, through this physical act. And that's why you say that. It's not 'cause it's like wrong, and then all of a sudden it's right. It's like, no, this is something so powerful, and good, and connecting that you wanna choose someone really special to do that with. So, then to put that in context, so you say, "Oh yeah, that girl is hot or whatever," doesn't mean I want to connect with this person physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and spend my life with them like...

0:29:11.7 DB: No.

0:29:12.3 MF: When you have sex them...

0:29:13.3 DB: That's that black-and-white thinking.

0:29:15.4 MF: Right. Right. Yeah. So yeah. I think when you do experience that connection, it's just so rich and powerful that it's something that you want to, yeah, enjoy.

0:29:29.6 DB: I was just telling my wife this morning, I actually thanked her. I says, "I'm so thankful." And this is sparking from a thread that I was following and how people were arguing that they can't even look. They can't have any other desires except for unto their wife. And well, at its core, I believe that. The only desire I have is for my wife. I also... I turn to her as I was waking up and says, "I'm really thankful that you can tell me you find certain things attractive. That's beautiful to me. That tells me that you have desire, that you have an appreciation for these things, and in no way do I ever feel threatened." It's never a feeling of like, "Oh, you want me to look like that." That's my insecurity if I ever feel that way.

0:30:15.3 MF: Sure.

0:30:16.8 DB: And I would actually be concerned if she never said that. If she never pointed out, "Wow, she has a good butt. Oh, he has good abs." I would wonder... Is your blood cold? Do you not see these things? Do you not appreciate it? It's like looking at art, can't we look at other things, art or things that are beautiful, and are we afraid that our partner is gonna become more attracted to that thing? I'm not trying to be silly, but in all seriousness, we should have interests and desires. That doesn't mean we're gonna make a commitment or break a relationship because of it. I think it's very objectifying. I think it's ironically objectifying to say that men can't have more complex experiences and a commitment solely to their partner while also appreciating something that looks beautiful.

0:31:10.8 MF: Yeah, one thing that I have noticed myself doing too, is if I find my thoughts... So yeah. You can appreciate. Oh yeah, that's a good looking girl. She's pretty, but if I noticed I'm starting to run down that track of attraction or wanting to have sex with this person, like what I found more use for myself instead of trying to just shut that all down to like, "No, no, no, no, don't think that." I actually go the other way. I'm like, "Okay. Let's say that it goes that way. Is that really what I want? Do I want to destroy my family?

0:31:47.1 DB: Excellent.

0:31:47.7 MF: Do I want to be that example to my kids? Do I want to do all that?" And all of a sudden, it's like, "No, is that worth a few seconds of pleasure or... "

0:32:00.1 DB: Yeah.

0:32:01.4 MF: Definitely not. And that for me, that's been a lot more helpful than trying to be like, "Oh, this is bad. Don't think that way."

0:32:07.3 DB: Yeah, that's what we call acceptance commitment therapy. Good for you. And I think you hit it on the head right there is if you start to think you want to have sex with this thing or this person you think is beautiful, address that thought.

[laughter]

0:32:22.4 MF: Right.

0:32:24.0 DB: I think that's a narrative that we've been taught, that's as soon as we find a woman or a person attractive, we now sexually crave that person. We need to break that narrative. That doesn't have to be that triggering thought. And everybody's different, of course, but I think we've been trained to think that way. And I think by addressing that concerning behavior or that concerning thought, and addressing that or like you did, you experiencing it, you said, "Do you really wanna do that?" That's what's important. Not shutting down all desire.

0:32:55.7 MF: Yeah, yeah, very good. Awesome. Well, thank you so much Daniel. Let's do a quick... A quick summary here. So, we talked about the idea of is masturbation a sin or not. And I think you really put it...

0:33:08.7 DB: Take it to the lord.

0:33:09.9 MF: Yeah, I think you really put it well, which is that's actually the wrong question. The question is, is the way I'm using my sexuality, whether that includes masturbation or whatever, is that bringing me closer to God? Is it bringing me closer to my wife or not? Right? And then, you're asking yourself is it in line with what has clearly been revealed? If that's in integrity to you to be someone that's following basically what God says, he's been pretty clear as far as being monogamous once you're married, but outside of that, there's not like a cut and dry this is how sex is supposed to be in marriage. So from there, it's more about like you said is this driving me closer to God? Is this driving me closer to God? And then, yeah, I think that's basically the summary.

[laughter]

0:34:00.9 DB: Excellent. No, I think it's a good summary. It's a pleasure as always Mike.

0:34:05.6 MF: Likewise. Yeah, very good.

0:34:07.7 DB: If anybody has that... I realized this pretty quick. If anybody has any questions or want clarification, I know we did a lot in a very short amount of time. My email is always open and my contact, you'll include that information and feel free to reach out.

0:34:21.6 MF: Yeah, great. Yeah, maybe if you just wanna call out one more time the easiest way to find you?

0:34:26.7 DB: You know what? Yeah, I run the Sutton Family Therapy, but the best way is to go to my personal website where I have this all specifically for Latter Day Saints is my name, my full name, danielaburgess.com. And you'll find everything with the improving intimacy there and all the articles that you referenced, and my blogs and my podcast there and my contact info. So danielaburgess@... Excuse me, danielaburgess.com.

0:34:55.2 MF: Perfect. Hey, thanks so much, Daniel, appreciate your time today.

0:34:55.8 DB: Yeah.

0:34:56.5 MF: And alright, stay strong man. We will see you next episode.

0:35:00.9 DB: Thank you.

[music]

What is Scrupulosity? Author Kari Ferguson Goes Behind The Scenes of "The OCD Mormon."

Kari Ferguson is the author of "The OCD Mormon" and "For and In Behalf Of" and creator of the blog, "Of Faith and Great Anxiety." She is a current member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and has served as Primary and Relief Society President.  Kari runs the bookstore Oh Hello Again (ohhelloagain.com) in Seattle. She received her MA in Communication, Culture and Society from Goldsmiths College, University of London, and her BS from Brigham Young University. Kari lives in Seattle, WA with her husband, two children, two bunnies, and a giant puppy.

Kari's book https://amzn.to/30N5iF6,

Vice Article https://www.vice.com/en/article/k7qjzm/obsessive-compulsive-disorder-dirt-cleanliness-how-i-have-sex,

Website https://www.faithandanxiety.com/

Full Transcript:

0:00:00.3 Speaker 1: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband, and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.

[music]

0:00:28.6 Daniel A. Burgess: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. Today I'm excited to have a special guest with us, Kari Ferguson, who is the author of OCD Mormon. Oh, did I get the title right? The OCD Mormon. I'm curious, have you even been interested or wanting to change the title now with the whole name change? Or have you felt like, "No, I'm gonna accept this."? I'm curious about that title. What has been your thoughts?

0:00:57.7 Kari Ferguson: We published it and then... 'Cause that's what my blog was called before, and then they had the whole, "Don't call yourselves Mormons," and... I don't know. We were just like, "Oh, whatever," I guess. That was who I was known as, is that at that point I thought it was just... I don't know. [chuckle]

0:01:14.7 DB: In the...

0:01:15.6 KF: Yeah, it's good for my scrupulosity as well, in a weird way.

0:01:18.7 DB: That's what I was wondering.

0:01:19.6 KF: Yeah, because of... Yeah, I have to keep it that. I'm bucking against what the church tells me to do.

[chuckle]

0:01:28.1 DB: Yeah, this is your form of exposure therapy.

0:01:31.5 KF: Exactly.

0:01:32.2 DB: Okay, I gotta accept it.

0:01:34.0 KF: I can't change it, yeah. It's out there.

0:01:35.6 DB: Well, I'm excited. I've been thinking about this a lot, and you and I were talking offline just a minute ago about why didn't I find you until now? In fact, when did you publish the book? How long ago?

0:01:47.1 KF: It came out in September of 2017.

0:01:50.6 DB: Okay, so not too long ago.

0:01:52.6 KF: Yeah, it's about three, four years ago now, yeah.

0:01:55.4 DB: A friend of mine who... So for my audience who doesn't know, I actually deal with a large amount of anxiety, something I've actually been coming to terms with it, or rather discovering more over the most recent years here, and have been reaching out to some friends and family.

0:02:13.1 DB: I have made a good friend with someone and we were talking about this this morning about, "Let's write our story about this," and he's like, "Yeah, this is so triggering for us." And I don't know if I can, I've got myself into a good place. I'm curious, so let's start off there. We'll get into some of the meat here and I have some quotes from your book that I really, really valued. I wanna start off that way, what motivated you to write this book, especially as somebody who struggles with anxiety and putting your story out there.

0:02:47.5 KF: For sure.

0:02:50.2 DB: What made you decide to do that?

0:02:51.8 KF: Yeah, well, I've always been a writer, so that's how I emotionally process things, I guess. So just for me, that was the logical step I would say. But I went through, like I wrote in the book, I went through a really intense OCD breakdown, we'll say, without knowing what it was, and then I finally got help with the help of my husband and therapy and medication.

0:03:17.6 KF: And I made a friend at church who also has obsessive-compulsive disorder, and so we had been talking about it, and I just, I thought, "There are a lot of people in our religion who have anxiety, who have these problems, but we don't know what to call it. We don't know what it is, we don't even know that it's a mental illness really." And I thought, "I'm gonna start a blog just about that, about having this issue as a Latter-day Saint, and maybe I could help some people."

0:03:55.6 KF: Because for me, if I had known 10 years before, it would've been a lot easier if I had realized fully what it meant and how I could get help, it would have changed my whole married life and my mission and everything. So I thought, "I can use my skill that I have, my writing, in order to help other people."

0:04:14.2 KF: So I started the blog, I think it was in... I don't know, 2016, summer. And so I just did that and it got sort of popular, not huge or anything, not viral, but enough that I was like, "I could write a book about this." And so I started just in general, "Mental illness in Latter-day Saints."

0:04:39.1 KF: And then on Twitter, I had this friend who's an LDS author named Mette Harrison, and so she kinda was my mentor and helped me really form the book, and she's like, "No, you need to go into your story personally. Don't be general, don't talk about... That's too much, that's too broad, all mental illnesses in LDS faith." So she really was like, "No, focus in. This is what you're known for. Write about having OCD and your story."

0:05:09.7 KF: So I did, and yeah, Cedar Fort said, "Yeah, this is great." The person who read my submission had a sister I think with scrupulosity, and so she was like, "Yes, we need this in the church and in the discourse."

0:05:26.3 DB: Well, I wanna explore more, 'cause you made it sound so easy to get this written here, and I am confident even though I don't know your story in getting the book published, I'm assuming it wasn't that simple or easy. But let's define this for the audience here. We've said a couple of times this word "scrupulosity" and "OCD." Explain, what is OCD and what is scrupulosity? How are they the same and how are they different?

0:05:54.9 KF: Okay. OCD, obviously Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, so by nature you have these thoughts that keep coming, and then it leads you to do things in order to make yourself feel better. So for instance, you have a thought like, "My hands are dirty," and so you say, "Okay, well, I have to wash my hands," but then your brain says, "Oh, well, you didn't wash them well enough." And so then you have to keep washing your hands or you touch something and then, "Oh, your hands are dirty. You have to wash your hands again."

0:06:26.0 KF: So it's this kind of call and response where your brain is saying, "Oh, something's wrong, something's wrong," and then you physically... There's even mental OCD as well where they do mental compulsions, so it doesn't have to be a physical compulsion. But anything that you do to try and relieve these thoughts that you're having, if it's enough that it's causing you disturbance to your life, to your day, to your life, then it becomes OCD, where it's a disorder and you need... You should get treatment or help.

0:07:00.3 DB: It interferes with your life.

0:07:01.0 KF: Yeah, if it interferes with your life, exactly. And then scrupulosity specifically is a type of OCD. And that's something I didn't really know at first, was that there were different types of OCD. 'Cause people just throw around OCD so flippantly. Like, "Oh, I like to have books organized, I'm so OCD." But it's not an adjective. It's a disorder and it's serious.

0:07:23.3 KF: See, I didn't realise there were so many different types until I went to therapy, and people were telling all their different stories, and I was like, "Oh my gosh, all these things are OCD that I've had." [chuckle] But scrupulosity is religious OCD basically. And so it has to do with maybe worthiness or things like, "Oh, I'm not good enough" or, "Oh, I'm not worthy to go in the temple" or, "Oh, I shouldn't have said that thing." Anything that relates to our religious upbringing and our thoughts there.

0:07:53.8 DB: But wait a second, you just described empathy, right? I said something wrong, I may have hurt somebody's feelings.

0:08:04.2 KF: Yeah.

0:08:04.6 DB: What's the difference between empathy and...

0:08:09.0 KF: And repentance.

0:08:09.5 DB: And reasonableness, and repentance. So what's the difference? Help the listener know.

0:08:15.2 KF: Yeah, that's something my therapist and I talked about, and he was not... He's not LDS. But he said, "It's so hard with scrupulosity and people who deal with that, because a lot of times for them, it's like the therapist versus God." And who is gonna win that? Obviously, God is gonna win that. Right?

0:08:31.9 DB: Yes.

0:08:32.1 KF: For a religious person, you're gonna say, "No, this is like the Spirit telling me I'm doing something wrong and I need to repent." So it can be really difficult to say, "Okay, where is this line between this is a mental illness and it's telling me I'm doing everything wrong, and I actually am doing something wrong and I need to repent and change." So it's really difficult.

0:08:57.8 KF: For me, my OCD really started with scrupulosity back in college. And yeah, I just thought it was I'm having a "come to Jesus" moment and I'm realizing all these horrible things I'm doing wrong. And so I really, I beat myself up and I... So many issues. I couldn't be alone really, 'cause I was worried and my brain would just keep going and I would say, "I have to fast on this random Thursday because I need help," and nothing was helping.

0:09:27.3 KF: I would take a nap and I remember one time I had sleep paralysis, which I never had before, where you can't, your body can't move. "Is it something? This is not normal." And so, I don't know, I think I realized that then, that something wasn't normal, but I didn't actually get help until 10 years later. I did go on medication then.

0:09:48.3 DB: Wow.

0:09:48.4 KF: But yeah, I didn't really understand what it was, or the other things that it could cause. So it is really difficult. I think if you're... If you know, Mormons, we tend to know... Or LDS, sorry. We tend to know what is right and wrong. Right? And if you're really pushing yourself past the normal right and wrong...

0:10:11.0 KF: If you're worried about every single thing, and it's so bad to the point where you feel like you can't be alone, or that's all you think about, or you're so worried that God hates you. Or whatever, these are kind of warning signs that, you probably have a problem.

0:10:27.3 DB: Big time.

0:10:27.7 KF: And you should get help.

0:10:30.0 DB: Yes.

0:10:30.0 KF: Because it should not feel like that. God does not want you to feel like you're a terrible person all the time. That's not what Heavenly Father wants for us. So if you are feeling like that...

0:10:40.0 DB: That's an excellent...

0:10:41.2 KF: You'll be fine, yeah.

0:10:42.7 DB: Yeah, that's an excellent point, and I think it's... You're right, this is one of the most difficult things, mental health issues, to identify within our faith, because it's one of the few mental health struggles that we actually praise. So for example, we reinforce scrupulosity a lot in the church and we idolize people who have it.

0:11:11.1 DB: And we don't even know that they have it, or they may not even recognize they have it. Usually it's in the context of, "I study the Scripture for two hours a day. I pray for 30 minutes twice a day."

[chuckle]

0:11:22.6 KF: It's not healthy, really.

0:11:24.1 DB: No, it's not healthy, but yet it's the focus. When we see people like that, we admire them, we often say, "Wow, I wish I had that." Let me clarify, these are non-scholars, non-BYU professors, non-religious teachers. It's one thing to have a... Sorry.

0:11:44.1 KF: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And after realizing this, I read through the Book of Mormon, and I'm like, "Oh man, Jacob, I'm worried about Jacob." I feel like he probably had... He even says that he has, "My great anxiety of faith and great anxiety in my soul." I'm like, you feel bad for him, because they probably we're dealing with these things. Even Enos, praying all day and all night, like... I don't know. [chuckle] Maybe...

0:12:07.8 DB: I've even thought... I love that you bring that up because I've even thought about Nephi's prayer or his poem. It's, "O wretched man that I am." And I'm like, holy cow, this...

0:12:21.3 KF: Right? It's been around the whole time, we just didn't have the words to describe it. Even my therapist said, I think Martin Luther, they think had OCD, who began basically the whole Protestant Reformation. [chuckle] Which makes sense, he was very worried about everything. And so, I don't know. It's good and bad.

0:12:41.4 DB: It is.

0:12:42.6 KF: Yeah.

0:12:44.6 DB: It's a fine line, because clearly, there's nothing wrong with people who wanna study the Scriptures for two or three hours a day, and that's not, I'm not exaggerating.

0:12:55.0 KF: Yeah.

0:12:57.0 DB: But like going back to your earlier definition, it's when it interferes with your life. One of the measurements I use is if you place those concepts of perfection above your loved ones, and above your relationship with God, and you base your relationship with God off of those measurements, you may have scrupulosity.

0:13:23.7 KF: Yes, yes. No, I totally, I totally agree. And that's the point it gets to, and like I said, for me, I wish it had gotten... I realized that it was scrupulosity, and so the OCD didn't branch out into other areas of my life. Because it did. 'Cause OCD, if you get used to it in one way, it will try and get you in another way eventually.

0:13:46.5 DB: Yes.

0:13:47.2 KF: Yeah, I don't know. It's a tricky thing.

0:13:50.2 DB: Personally, I don't know if I would define myself having elements of scrupulosity, but as someone who does battle with anxiety and ADHD, my personality type is very different from what those we tend to admire in the church, somebody who, going back to that example of routine Scripture study. Now, I used to force myself and judge my worthiness based off of my ability to perform like somebody else, let's use the word neurotypical person.

0:14:29.6 DB: When I came to grips that my form of study and prayer takes on a very different look than somebody who's neurotypical, it was a breath of fresh air. And to be okay with that, the way I study, the way I pray, I felt closer to God immediately when I put off this... It gets me upset now, when I get people who bear their testimony, who says, "If you study the Scriptures the first thing you do when you wake up in the morning, you will be closer... " I go, "Nope, that's number one way to upset me and draw me further away from God."

[chuckle]

0:15:07.6 KF: Yes, everyone, it's so, that's so true. We all worship in different ways, and that I think that's meant to be, but we, for some reason in the church we're taught, "This is the way you do it." And so, yeah, for me it was like with the scrupulosity it was like, I felt so much duty, like my relationship with the church was really just like, "I have to do these things because this is what I've committed to do. And this is how you get to heaven."

0:15:33.8 KF: And so it was very like, this is my duty that I have to do this, if that makes sense? It wasn't so much out of love. I have testimony, but it wasn't like I'm doing this because I love the Savior, necessarily. The first and foremost was like, "Okay, this is what I have to do because this is what God expects me to do. And this is what I've covenanted with Him to do. And my family, I have an eternal family, they're relying on me to stay true," and all of these things.

0:16:00.3 KF: It was like all this pressure that you have to keep doing it in a certain way. But it's really unhealthy, and you get to a point where you're just like, "I can't, I can't anymore," and you have to realise maybe you don't have to accept every single calling, or maybe you don't have to be the perfect ministering sister or brother. Because I'm an introvert and it's hard for me to do certain things, but other things I can do really well.

0:16:30.5 KF: Even listening to general conference, I don't get much out of it, but reading it, I can. Where my husband is basically the opposite 'cause he has ADHD. So yeah, everyone is different, and it's fine. That's, we're made this way, it's not a sin to have mental illnesses or developmental...

0:16:47.4 DB: Differences.

0:16:48.2 KF: Differences of any kind. Yeah.

0:16:51.1 DB: So I'm gonna read off of page seven in your book. What was... It touched me to just... I struggle to put words into what I experience on this. Again, I may have some degree of scrupulosity, as I looked more and more inward, I don't think I fit the classic definition definitely, but again, it may be more of my anxiety and ADHD, just the differences in approach, but I loved what you said here on page seven.

0:17:22.4 DB: It says, "I spent evenings alone wanting to burst into tears but not feeling like it would do any good. I questioned why God would let me end up here alone. I wondered why I felt guilty and why I worried about every single thing. I was at a loss for what to do with myself. Uncertainty ate away at my sanity, and I thought I was going to have a nervous breakdown at any second. Last year, I did, and it was a surprise because I have always coped."

0:18:01.3 DB: What I would have said well, with my anxiety, I think because ironically, my ADD allowed me to break free of rigidity, and I actually think I was blessed with ADHD, for that reason. I don't know if "blessed" is the right word, 'cause that's not fair to others, but it definitely allowed me to cope.

0:18:29.7 DB: I fortunately have a wife who is like, "Tell me, share with me," and I never felt like I could. It's like, "You really wanna know what's going on in here?" And as I shared, now she's like, Oh, this is what... " In fact, yesterday, Sunday, I was having a really bad day. And when we came home from church, we're going to church now, and I told her, I said, "I can't even be touched, I can't. This is, I'm feeling overwhelmed. I have to go isolate myself."

0:19:02.2 DB: And she goes, "Oh my goodness, I had no idea." This is how I've pretended for so long. Are you wanting me to share this with you? I have felt alone, even in the midst of the most beautiful support system, because I don't feel like people could relate to me. When I read that paragraph, it tells me you know exactly what that was like. Share with me. Well, I guess...

0:19:35.0 KF: Yeah, yeah, no...

0:19:37.8 DB: Let me formulate that question a little bit better here. You said earlier... Well, in general, you have so much insight right now about why you did things, and you wish you'd known this 10 years earlier.

0:19:53.7 KF: Yeah.

0:19:54.4 DB: But the truth of the matter, most people with scrupulosity will not receive that information.

0:20:00.3 KF: No.

0:20:00.6 DB: Do you feel... 'Cause as I look at this and I say, "If somebody told me 10, 15, 20 years ago, I would have said, 'What are you talking about?'"

0:20:09.4 KF: Right. Yeah, especially in college.

0:20:10.6 DB: Even with just anxiety.

0:20:12.0 KF: Yeah. Right.

0:20:12.9 DB: Do you feel like you would have listened to your... You, 10...

0:20:17.3 KF: No, no. Well, you know, it's interesting, when I was writing the book, I got out my old journals. I had journaled through college, basically. And so I was reading from this time period of when it went... When it went down, when it was really bad, like I wrote about there. And I was just reading like, "Oh my gosh."

0:20:38.1 KF: And then I read about how, I went back to BYU, I was doing an internship at the time in Seattle. And so I went back to BYU and went to the health center, so I was like, "I'm gonna... You know, I need to get help of some kind." My mum's a nurse, so she was like, "Just go to the health center and tell them." And I had written down in my journal, like, "I went to the health center and they told me I had obsessive compulsive disorder."

0:21:01.4 KF: And I was like, "What? I knew. They told me." So exactly, I was told, but it just like, it went over my head. They didn't really... They must not have explained or I wasn't ready to accept that that's what I had. I don't know, and that's how I got on medication, was that visit. But I literally, until I re-read it, that journal years later, I was like, "What? They told me. I didn't know." Literally, it didn't come to me. So that's your answer, they did tell me and I was like, "No, no, I'm not gonna listen."

0:21:37.0 DB: Yes...

0:21:37.4 KF: "I don't care." Yeah.

0:21:39.1 DB: So I guess, the next question is, this is what I... What I think is the most difficult aspect about this, is, one, being able to recognize that this is actually a problem.

0:21:49.4 KF: Right.

0:21:49.9 DB: We've reinforced this within our church culture to idolize admire and even encourage this type of behavior, thinking it's good.

0:22:00.6 KF: Yeah.

0:22:01.7 DB: I get a lot of pushback when I identify this, especially around sexuality.

0:22:06.3 KF: Yes.

0:22:07.1 DB: Which is what I deal with the majority of the time, is, "Are you telling me not to listen to the prophets? Are you telling me to not be perfect?" How would you recommend, knowing what you know now, to talk and to... I realize we can't convince people, but...

0:22:27.0 KF: Right.

0:22:27.8 DB: What are your thoughts? How would you go about helping people recognize this?

0:22:32.1 KF: Yeah, you know, it is so hard. When I was writing the book and publishing it, I was really Society president at the time as well.

0:22:41.9 DB: It's alright.

0:22:42.7 KF: So it was like also I had this overwhelming calling. And so I was able to talk with a lot of sisters and realize like "Oh, they have mental health problems." And the ones who did and knew, they felt more comfortable talking to me because I was so open about my mental health issues. And so it was actually a benefit having that openness.

0:23:07.5 KF: So I don't know, it's, I think those of us who do have mental health issues need to be more open at church about it and more vocal about it. Because then those people who do have it, but maybe don't realize it, can start saying, "Oh, I recognize that in myself." Or, "Oh yeah, I've done that." And then you get that seed planted.

0:23:30.7 KF: And it does take years sometimes for people to be diagnosed with anxiety or OCD. Anxiety is more when people are like, "Oh yeah, I have anxiety." I don't know, everybody seems like they're willing to admit that. But yeah, I don't know, so for me, it's like...

0:23:47.0 DB: It's an acceptable mental health issue.

0:23:48.7 KF: It's an acceptable. Exactly. Where scrupulosity it's like, "No, that's good you're like that." So I think also church leadership, which they've done a lot better recently, really begins to say like, "Okay, this is an issue that we have," stating it and coming out and being really just, yeah, really transparent about it.

0:24:08.8 DB: And, "It's okay, and this is... We don't wanna be like this. We wanna get help. It's not good to be obsessed about being worthy or perfect." I think as the more the higher-ups start to talk about it more, it will become something that people are like, "Oh, okay." You know, and Elder Holland gave a great talk a couple of years ago about that.

0:24:32.4 DB: He's great.

0:24:32.7 KF: They've done Ensign articles about these things as well. So they are working on it, I feel like. We did a conference called Anxiety Disorders in Mormonism, shortly after the book was published, and that was great. I think we had church leadership there from some department, I don't know. So you know, kind of probably checking up on us, seeing like, "Are they really teaching good things?" But also I hope it helped them to realize that this is an issue.

0:25:00.4 DB: Oh, wow.

0:25:00.5 KF: And it was sold out this conference at the Joseph Smith Memorial Building. This is something in the church that we need to talk about more. So yeah, I don't know.

0:25:09.3 DB: My goodness, yes. I think that's what's interesting here is... And I apologize, I think we're on a slight delay here, so I don't mean to be talking over you. You've published this book now three years ago, or four years ago, and this is the first time I'm hearing it.

0:25:30.5 KF: Right.

0:25:30.5 DB: And I'm a mental health professional. And to your point, I am surprised. I am absolutely baffled why you haven't been on... And this is not a criticism to my colleagues, but I am surprised that you haven't been on every mental health podcast in the LDS community. Being that this is such an important topic and it is related to anxiety, depression.

0:25:57.4 DB: Even if you don't have scrupulosity specifically, this is prevalent in the church. And so you're right, this needs to get out. And so if I could do my part. I agree with you. There's kind of a paradox, because as you said, and I 100% agree. The upper leadership need to be talking about it more. But that's also kind of fueling the problem. We're waiting for our leaders of authority to say, "This is what you need to do."

0:26:28.2 KF: It's true. And you know, there is this divide, I think, with a lot of church members. I did a book signing at a church book store in Washington after the book came out. I was sitting there and I have the books, and I heard someone walking by like, "Ugh, OCD Mormon." Like, "Oh, that doesn't matter. OCD doesn't matter" Yeah, I was like, "I'm right here." [chuckle]

0:26:53.1 KF: But it is one of the, specifically OCD is one that people don't really realise is a real mental health disorder. If that sounds... That sounds terrible, but it's true. Because we use this so flippantly, the "OCD" term. So I don't know. Yeah, it's really hard I think anxiety is an easier one, people will say, "Okay, yeah, you have anxiety."

0:27:14.4 KF: But all the mental illnesses is really are so co-morbid with each other where you can have one and the other. They kind of like to pair up and be friends, which is not fun. So yeah, I have OCD, but I also do have anxiety, generally. I've been having suicidal thoughts before because of all of these things. So they really, they all go hand in hand. And they can get so deep if you don't address them, and cause other problems and cause even like physical problems.

0:27:47.5 KF: One time, I thought I was having a heart attack after my breakdown in college. And so I had to go and do EKG testing. So I thought I was having heart attack.

0:27:57.8 DB: I've been there.

0:27:58.5 KF: Yeah, it's like if you're having these things, there's something wrong and let's get help, because it's available, and it's great. When I went to the BYU Health Center and they just gave me the medication. And there wasn't, as I remember, not really a discussion about other options. I think a lot of us do want just like, "Okay, give me the drugs, and I'll be fine." We don't wanna put in the work and put in the time.

0:28:25.8 KF: Because we're so busy too, in the church. We're so busy. We have all these callings, and we have our kids, and we have this, and the school, and all the jobs. And it's like, "When do I have time to go to a therapist? When am I gonna do that?" But it's so...

0:28:39.3 DB: We need an immediate solution.

0:28:41.4 KF: Yeah, we want the immediate solution. And the medication is great. It helps kind of take it down a notch, at least for me, and I don't know for you if you're on anything. But being in therapy just helps you understand why and what it really is, and how you can behaviourally take care of it and get better, and when it comes up in other areas, you recognize it more, than just taking a medication.

0:29:09.0 KF: It really, yeah, therapy is so important. And it's so hard to get, for some people. It's hard to find the right therapist. It's hard to get an appointment with a therapist. These are things that are also obstacles, that are huge, yeah.

0:29:22.3 DB: And one... And you addressed this in the book very well. I have so many questions. This is such an exciting topic for me, so let me organize my thoughts here. Because you brought up this and you talk about this in the book really well too. It's one thing to find a therapist and to find a therapist who really knows how to address this.

0:29:41.9 KF: Yes.

0:29:42.2 DB: But before... Before I ask that question, I wanna talk about the nuance around this. And one of the things that really prevents, I believe, prevents us from, at least in the church community, that... Recognizing we need help. Is, what we perceive is the spiritual... And I'm curious, 'cause I don't remember you talking about this in the book, or at least bringing it up, is what we perceive as the spiritual reward we get when we are following our scrupulosity.

0:30:15.8 DB: I often hear people will say, "Are you telling me this is a mental illness? When I read for two hours a day, I pray repetitiously. I feel closer to the Lord." That.

0:30:31.0 KF: Right. "You're telling me that's wrong?" Yeah.

0:30:34.2 DB: How do we... Is that something you experienced? And if you did, how did you address it?

0:30:40.9 KF: Yeah, it is something that is so hard. And I've been doing research for a different project about generational differences in worship. And so I was reading articles, and there's actually, they're doing experiments, and they actually use LDS people, which I thought was great for these experiments, about... Neuroscientists and neurologists are doing this, about how our brain reacts to religion. I read this article, it's called Your Brain on God. And this doctor...

0:31:13.3 DB: Great article out of University of Utah.

0:31:16.6 KF: Yeah, yeah, and just basically how our brain over, probably over the thousands of years since we came up with religion, our brains have become... Yeah, religion helps. It turns on different parts of our brain, like the responses for pleasure. Like cause and effect. We're like, "Oh yeah." So we pray and we feel better about it. And it's literally hard-wired into our brain to feel that way now with religious experiences. Especially for LDS people, apparently.

0:31:47.4 KF: So yeah, if you talk about God or something in the experiment, and you probably know as well as I do, but yeah, they were happier. And so it really is part of our brain. But it's just like a drug where you can get addicted to that in a way. And that sounds awful, right? Probably people will be like, "Oh, you can't say you're addicted to religion, it's not bad, it's good."

0:32:13.3 KF: But God also says moderation in all things, and for the average person, average LDS individual, I don't think He wants us praying two hours a day or reading two hours of Scriptures a day. There's so many... He wants us to be with our family and enjoying the Earth and being good examples out of our own home. So it's hard. It's really... [chuckle] I don't know if I answered any question. But it's hard, yeah.

0:32:39.4 DB: It is hard. You did. And actually, that research, I'm glad you brought it up because it's one that I've written about and we talked a lot about, you bring it up, it's like a drug. It actually shows something quite the opposite, and this is what I mean. We've been doing a lot of brain scans around people who are behaviorally addicted to pornography or these other things, forms of media.

0:33:08.5 DB: And they found that this brain response of studying the Scriptures and following the leaders or reading quotes from the prophets, lit up the brain in a similar way as those who look at porn. And so what we've been identifying, what some of the best researchers have been identifying, is there's something else going on that's beyond this chemical addiction.

0:33:32.4 DB: Which is not like a drug, actually. It's what we are creating in our belief system, what we're expecting to receive from it. And so, what we're identifying is we need to redefine how we experience those relationships. So I think you actually did answer the question, is I don't need to read three hours a day to have this feeling of closeness with the Lord. I can create this in a way that's pleasing to Him, in a way that's more appropriate for me.

0:34:09.3 KF: Right.

0:34:09.8 DB: Does that make sense?

0:34:10.8 KF: Yes, more is not always better, you know?

0:34:13.7 DB: Correct.

0:34:15.8 KF: Yeah, it's interesting, and I read this book, I'm trying to see if I have it here on myself. About George Albert Smith, with the prophet and how he, basically his... Youu know, he had mental illness, mental health problems, but they didn't really diagnose it 'cause he was back in the...

0:34:37.1 DB: I love this example.

0:34:38.6 KF: Yeah, and reading it, I was like, "Oh, he has anxiety obviously, and probably obsessive-compulsive disorder." And they tried to do ridiculous things to the poor man, like, "You have to live outside in the back cottage, "or all these just crazy things, "You have to take time off from being an apostle," and all of these things.

0:34:58.0 KF: And I just, it helped me feel better about my own problems 'cause I'm like, "Okay, even the prophet had this." And I think it allowed him to be more empathetic when he became prophet, he was prophet right after World War II. And so I think having those experiences and having the mental health problems that he did, I think it made him the prophet he needed to be for that time period, even though it was awful and he didn't have the correct treatment because they didn't have it then really.

0:35:29.5 KF: But to know like, "Okay, it can be a blessing in some ways," like you said. It could be awful too. And so it is awful, but it can help us learn empathy and learn different skills that the Lord can then use to help the Kingdom. I don't know.

0:35:49.0 DB: I believe it was George Albert Smith, 'cause as I was telling you offline, I've done such extensive research, sometimes stories cross, so I hope I'm remembering correctly, and I find it was a missed opportunity when we're studying him as a prophet, that they didn't include that in the material. And how he would actually isolate himself in California for months at a time, to escape it all and to recover. What a benefit that would be to here as a church community. I think... And I have no idea. I am...

[overlapping conversation]

0:36:22.1 KF: Needed to do that for his mental health. Yeah.

0:36:25.1 DB: Yes. And I don't wanna pretend I know what the leadership is thinking when they develop this material, but maybe my only guess is maybe they don't want us to have a negative light on George Albert Smith. But I don't know. I thought that would be... So when I teach that lesson that I sometimes get asked to teach, I make sure I include that. It's like, oh my goodness, isn't he more relatable now? Isn't it make you feel good?

0:36:53.8 KF: Yeah. I even think about Christ when He had to go and He would go up into the mountains and pray by Himself, I'm like, "Yeah, I relate to that needing to get away from all of the people and all the things going on around you, and just have the solitude." I'm like, "Yeah, I can relate to that." Or just being asleep in the boat and, "Go take care of it yourselves." [chuckle] Solve the problem on your own.

0:37:17.4 DB: Absolutely.

0:37:18.5 KF: I think it does, it humanizes everyone, these leaders. And just, you know, the thing is, it's sad, but like you said, there's such a negative perception of mental illness, not just in the church, but everywhere. And so end of therapy and things like that, and people think, "Well, I'm not being good enough, or I'm not praying enough if I'm depressed." If you're unhappy, you're just not being a good enough Latter-day Saints.

0:37:52.5 KF: And you hear that a lot, like, "You just have to pray it away, or fast more or pull up your bootstraps." And it's...

0:37:58.0 DB: Correct.

0:38:00.9 KF: That's not the right way to deal with this. I think it's hard to change that demographic of the church and of society, that thinks that like mental illness is a personal weaknesses. Because it's not. It's not a sin, it's not a weakness. It's a real thing, just like if you had cancer or if you had endometriosis or whatever. It's a real illness.

0:38:29.0 DB: But to your earlier point, I'm gonna come back to that other question, is when we do seek help... So let's step out of even the LDS community right now, let's talk about the medical community. So I'm putting the pieces together myself over the years and I had a nervous breakdown, oh, I don't remember the year now, it might have been around 2006 or 7, and I thought I was...

0:38:57.2 DB: So your story about heart attack hit home for me because I remember checking myself in, and thought I was dying. At that time, I was also 265 pounds, and so I thought I was prime heart attack whatever, and I checked myself in and they did all the tests and they're like, "You're fine."

0:39:19.6 DB: I said, "I am not fine." And they looked at me like I was crazy, like, "Get out of here." It felt like it was more just they were protecting themselves from liability to keep me there, and I was of course feeling a lot of shame like, "I don't understand. I am... " You can't even describe. People who have had a severe panic attack understand. And that's what it ended up being.

0:39:50.1 DB: But there was no... No one sat me down and said, "Look, what we believe is happening here and how we think we can help this... " I realise it was an emergency urgent care facility, but that also goes to the point. Our society, we're now in 2020, and even with me having a nervous breakdown last year in 2020, the help and the insight...

0:40:15.8 DB: And I'm a mental health therapist and I was struggling to identify what was happening, and it's always harder when it's happening to you, but to be able to identify it and to get the help, it's just like, "Here, take this Klonopin or whatever. Let's just calm you down and get you home."

0:40:33.6 DB: And then, as you talked about in the book, and this is where my next question is, is how? It's one thing to identify that you may have a problem and then another to find a therapist who really knows how to deal with this. And as a therapist, I struggle to find people who are adequately trained to refer people to. What was your process? And I know you brought it up a little bit in your book, but how did you find the right therapist for you?

0:41:06.8 KF: Yeah, luck, really. [chuckle] No, but...

0:41:10.3 DB: It's true.

0:41:11.2 KF: It's true, it's true. I was having this... At the time, it was contamination OCD, I got really bad. And my husband was like, "This is not normal. You need help." And I was like, "No, no, I'm fine, I can do... I am a strong person, I don't need help." And he was like, "No, you need help."

0:41:32.9 KF: So I was really blessed with a husband who was really supportive and had a family with mental illness, and so he could recognize this and not take "no" for an answer really. He was like, "No, you need help." So I was like... I was too involved or too emotionally upset to even call doctors.

0:41:55.6 KF: Which, a lot of people are at that point, when you're going through a breakdown, you can't. You're not like, "Okay, let me go research all the different doctors that I could go to." No, you're having a breakdown. So I was lucky, he started calling the doctors. It was to the point where he was even calling the in-care, yeah, people like, "Can she come in and stay there?" and they're like, "No, we're full," or, "Oh, no, we don't have any appointments for two months." And he's like, "This is not... We need something now."

0:42:23.1 KF: And so he called someone, a doctor in Seattle. We were living on an island in the Puget Sound at the time, near Seattle, but he called the doctor in Seattle and he's like, "My wife's having a really hard time with this," and he's like, "Well, we have a group session tonight that she could come to. And I have a cancellation the next day too for an appointment."

0:42:48.4 KF: So it was just totally random that he called this doctor that day at that time and the cancellation. So I was very lucky, I was very lucky. I went to the group and that's when I was like, "Oh yeah, this is what I have." And then, yeah, I went to him for the appointment and he told me, "Go to your GP, general doctor and get on medication for now, because it will help you in the meantime to calm down. And then we'll work on the therapy once you can... You're well enough that you can actually do the exposure therapy and do the things that you need to do."

0:43:32.3 KF: So I went to my other doctor, got on medication, then I went home for Christmas to my parent's house with our family. And I was suicidal, having suicidal thoughts because of everything.

0:43:46.1 DB: Yeah.

0:43:46.3 KF: So I was like, "I can't go back," to this island where we lived 'cause I was like, "It's dirty, and contamination." And so we flew home and drove to Portland and started looking at houses down there to move, because we were building a house on Vashon Island, but we were like, "We need something better in the meantime that's closer to therapy," because I didn't wanna take a ferry and then drive a half hour to go to the therapist every week. I was like, "That is a two-hour commute, it's too much."

0:44:18.3 KF: So we were lucky enough that we could do that, and we bought a house down near Portland. And so I came back to my therapist and I'm like, "We're moving," and he's like, "What? What are you doing?" I'm like, "No, we need to move, various reasons." And so he said, "Well, I have a friend down there, another therapist in Portland, and I will transfer you over there." And so I was like, "Oh, great." He's like, "He's me, but in Portland."

0:44:43.2 KF: So I was like, "Okay, that's fine, that's great." So I moved down there and I met with him, and he was great. He was like... We hit it off even better than I did with the one in Seattle. And I don't know, we just, I met with him every week at first and was able to make progress on the things that we're really bad. We started with the contamination, which is really the one that was awful for me.

0:45:05.6 KF: And then once that was kind of under control, then he looked and said, "Okay, now, what else? What else is the OCD touching?" And then we were able to go to the scrupulosity or the hitting around OCD, or whatever, there's all these different sub-types. But it was just a luck, and so I feel really lucky that I had that experience. It's been really hard to...

0:45:28.3 KF: Now, I didn't... I stopped going to see him once I was better, and I was like, "Oh, I'm doing so well with this whole behavioral therapy, I know what to do now, this is great." I'm like, "I'm gonna go off my medication, I'm not... I don't need to see my therapist very much, I know what I'm doing now." And I had a total breakdown while I was writing the book, total...

0:45:57.3 DB: Wow.

0:45:58.0 KF: Right back where I was basically. And I'm like, "What it's going on? I know what I'm supposed to do." Like you, you're a therapist, you're like, "I know the tools but I can't use them myself. What is going on?" And my friend that had to come and she checked me...

0:46:13.5 DB: Let me pause you for a second. Let me pause for a second, 'cause I think this is important to emphasize to those people who don't experience this, when they're trying to be loving and supportive, that there... One of the things I discovered, really quick, I understand all the concepts, techniques and tools with grounding with mindfulness, but when your brain gets into a place of ruminating, no amount of grounding, mindfulness, breathing techniques... Now, help.

0:46:47.6 DB: And I wanna say that with a caveat, I'm not saying that, "It's not gonna be helpful. Don't do it." You definitely do it. I'm not saying don't do it. But when you're loving network, your family, your support system is getting frustrating, saying, "Aren't you doing this?" Or, "You need to do this." I think it's important for them to remember, because it may help you and get you into a good place, it does help us, but it's not the solution, and it's probably not as effective as it may be for you. Is that your experience?

0:47:27.2 KF: Yeah, for me it was like, yeah, I knew what I should be doing, but I was like, "No." I think it was pride too. I don't wanna have to go back to the therapist and tell them I failed. I know what I should be doing, but I just I can't do it. My brain, it was just like, "No, no."

0:47:47.7 DB: So you couldn't even get there, your brain wouldn't even let you do it?

0:47:51.8 KF: Yeah. I had a friend, the friend who had OCD and that I mentioned earlier, and she was like, "I'm taking you to the hospital." Because I would tell her things about going on a walk, "I could just walk out into traffic right now, it wouldn't matter." She's like, "I'm taking it in to the hospital 'cause that is not normal thoughts to have."

0:48:12.8 KF: And so I went and they gave me some drugs. And then the next day I went to my doctor and got back on medication. No, it's hard, and I think it's... Even now, I'm not going to the therapist regularly, and I'm like, "Oh, I don't need to go to the therapist," but I should, I should. Not every week, but I should check in once a month or once every three months. The accountability is important.

0:48:44.1 KF: And that's what keeps me on track, I'm on medication again, still, and that's keeping me fine, but if something happened, something major, I would probably have another... I would probably go back to the same spot. It's really hard. It's a constant, it's a life-long...

0:49:03.2 DB: Understood.

0:49:04.1 KF: Yeah, and medication doesn't always work as well as it used to, and so you have to have these tools in your toolbox and recognize like, "Okay, I can't do this on my own."

0:49:17.2 DB: I wanna be respectful of your time. I have many thoughts and questions. Are you okay if we go beyond the hour?

0:49:22.9 KF: Yeah. It's fine.

0:49:24.6 DB: And what you don't really address in the book is how this affected your intimate relationship with your husband. And not just sexually, but connection in all of it. Are you comfortable in explaining that?

0:49:43.8 KF: For sure. I mean, I laugh because I remember these instances, and to me they were like, "Oh my gosh," like life and death. But now I'm like, "What was I doing?" But when I had the contamination OCD, he would take the laundry downstairs or something, let's say, and I always say, "You have to go wash your hands." He was like, "Why." 'Cause you touched a dirty laundry, and he was like, "I'm not gonna do that," and I'm like "then you're not gonna sleep in the bed tonight."

0:50:12.3 KF: And he's like, "What?" "No, you have to sleep on the couch unless you wash your hands." And he's like, "What are you talking about?" Things like that or even just touching, he would go by and pat me on the bum or something, and I'd be like, "What are you doing? Don't touch me, don't touch me there!" He was like "What? What's the problem?"

0:50:34.7 KF: These little things that are natural husband and wife things, I'm like, "Whoa!" I'm thinking, "This is wrong, this is... You're dirty, this is awful." And yeah, even sex, I was like, "Whoa, this is dirty. We can't." It was very like, we have to have it on a certain sheet, or have sex in a certain time, or what... I take off my garments, my underwear, I have to pull them and put them in a spot, put them on like a Kleenex 'cause they're dirty. And it really ruins the the moment.

0:51:09.3 KF: He used to be like, "Oh my gosh, what are you doing?" Or if you touch anything, you have to go wash your hands. Yeah, it really does affect your intimacy and your relationship with your spouse, because in your mind, you're like, "This is totally logical. And this is what I have to do to maintain my sanity." And to them, they're like, "What is going on? This is not okay."

0:51:34.7 KF: So yeah, it's really hard on spouses. And children too. I was like, "I'm not gonna color with my kids 'cause they touched the markers and maybe they didn't wash their hands after they went to the bathroom." So I'm not gonna color with them. Or I'm not gonna sit on the floor with them because the floor is dirty or... You know, just all of these things would factor into it. It changed my whole relationship with my whole family. Yeah.

0:52:00.1 DB: So with... Because my group is focused on intimacy specifically, what do you do now?

0:52:09.5 KF: Yeah.

0:52:11.2 DB: Do you feel like sex is now pleasurable for you, or? I guess I made an assumption. It sounds like sex was not a pleasurable experience before?

0:52:17.6 KF: No. No, it was kind of like a...

0:52:18.7 DB: Do you feel like it is now?

0:52:20.6 KF: You know, it's not totally better. I have tried to be better about it, but there's still... It becomes a habit when you do these things often enough. And so even without thinking about it, I'm like, "Okay, we're gonna move over to your side of the bed if we're gonna have sex, because I don't wanna get my side dirty." Like, still. [chuckle]

0:52:43.6 KF: And I try...

0:52:44.0 DB: I'm glad you can laugh about it.

0:52:45.6 KF: I try not to be obvious about it, but I'll scoot over or whatever. Or I'll be like... I'll look like where he puts the underwear when... [chuckle] Like, "Okay, is it in a good spot? Okay, we're good." Because we've talked about it. We were interviewed for Vice on this topic, OCD and Intimacy. So you can look that up.

0:53:10.7 DB: We'll include the link.

0:53:12.4 KF: It was really good, actually. He was in the conversation obviously. It was like couples therapy, just talking it out. And him saying, "Okay, this bothers me when you do this." And I was like, "Really?" So I think couples need to be able to open up to each other about that, about sex, and what are problems or issues that each person has, because it's really healthy actually.

0:53:37.8 KF: And I think we don't talk about it at church 'cause we're like, "That is a private thing. I'm Mormon and I can't do this and we can't talk about it. Or we can't use sex toys." Or whatever people think. Because we don't talk about it, we have all these assumptions of what we can and can't do, I think. Or should and shouldn't do. But really, is that even like a thing? I don't know.

0:54:02.1 KF: Like using sex toys, I was like, "I cannot. No, we don't do this." He's like, "No, it's fine." So these are things that we've had to work on and still work on, but talking about it and being open about it with some random stranger actually really helped us to come to terms and to be like, "Okay, you know, we need to be better at this. Or I need to be better at it and not let the OCD take over that." And be okay with having pleasure.

0:54:28.9 DB: Again?

0:54:30.6 KF: Yeah. With... You know, it's okay...

0:54:33.3 DB: Yes.

0:54:33.7 KF: If you feel good about this. Which for some reason I never did. Well, you know.

0:54:39.1 DB: You bring it up again.

0:54:40.6 KF: Yeah.

0:54:41.3 DB: Yeah, it's interesting because it's, again, the taboo and the somehow... Someone predefined we're not supposed to talk about certain things. Like my wife was just telling me she was at book club and they brought up Emily Nagoski, one of Emily Nagoski's books, which is great, about female pleasure. And one of the people says, "Let's do that for our book club." And she was excited, she says, "It's changed my relationship for the better."

0:55:09.3 DB: And the response... Again, I'm not criticizing anybody, I wasn't there, but the immediate, the automatic response was like, "No, gross, we don't talk about that thing." And it's like, oh, we're feeding the problem, we're feeding the problem. And we're not allowing ourselves to identify, "Well, I know I can have pleasure, but I'm not allowed to talk about it."

0:55:32.8 KF: Yeah.

0:55:33.1 DB: And if we don't talk about it, how do we learn about it? I mean, it's...

0:55:38.1 KF: How do we learn... How do we even know, yeah, what it is. What, yeah. No, exactly.

0:55:42.8 DB: Even like with sex toys, it's like, "Yes, absolutely." So has that been a helpful thing for you? Has incorporating tools, I like to call them sex tools. [chuckle] "Toys" makes it sound... Which, there's nothing with saying "toys".

0:56:00.1 KF: Yeah, no.

0:56:00.1 DB: But for therapeutic mind, it's like it's a tool, it's to help you. [chuckle]

0:56:02.5 KF: No, and it has. And just... My husband wasn't always active at church, and so I was not his first sexual partner, we'll say. And I was very worried about that at first. This is like, "I don't know anything about this, and I could be very bad and he would know." 'Cause I'm not the only person he's been with.

0:56:25.6 KF: So then I was also like, "Oh well, this is just because you weren't always active at church, so that's why it's okay to do... You think it's okay to do these things?" But no, it's fine. And yeah, the tools have been very helpful and... But it has taken me a while to be like okay with it, or to be okay with doing it myself...

0:56:47.5 DB: Yes.

0:56:49.0 KF: When he's... Things like that, having pleasure. Like, is it...

0:56:52.9 DB: Has that been helpful for you, allowing you to be in your own space and to...

0:56:58.0 KF: Yeah.

0:56:58.0 DB: Does that help manage your anxiety so that you don't feel like you're having to perform for anybody, just yourself?

0:57:04.1 KF: Yeah, yeah. You know, and I... Yeah, I always used to be like, "Okay, well," when he's done, then it's like, we're done. But now I'm like, "No, now it's my turn." And so we'll use the tool. And we'll use the tool, and it's...

0:57:16.6 DB: Toy is fine. [chuckle]

0:57:18.3 KF: You know, it really has helped to be like, "You know, this is... It's not just for him that this needs... This is for pleasure. I should also enjoy this." And it can be really stress-reducing as well for me, and not just a stressful occasion like, "Okay, I have to be good for him," and then he gets his pleasure, and then we're done. It's not just a one-way thing. We're not the tool, the women. We also deserve to have pleasure.

0:57:50.4 DB: Yes. Yes.

0:57:51.8 KF: That's something that took so long for me to realise. And also to even allow myself to get to that point of orgasm. My body was always just like, "No, no, no, no, no, no. I can't lose control," 'cause of my mental illness and my health. "I have to always be in control. I can't not know what's gonna happen." And so you had just to being able to let that go.

0:58:15.5 DB: The way you just phrased that there...

0:58:17.3 KF: Yeah.

0:58:17.9 DB: The way you just phrased that, "I can't let myself lose control." I have heard that from many, many women in counseling. That they feel like when they're on the verge of orgasm, they're losing control. I clearly can't identify as a woman in what you're experiencing. But that was a very triggering word or phrase for you.

0:58:41.5 DB: As I'm listening, I'm thinking, "Oh my goodness." And I wanna be careful, I don't wanna do a broad stroke of scrupulosity across everyone who may have experienced it that way. But that does sound like possibly a symptom of, "I'm losing control."

0:59:00.0 KF: Yeah.

0:59:00.1 DB: "What's gonna happen here?" What do you think?

0:59:02.5 KF: I think it is. I think... No, I think you're right. And I think, I don't know. Yeah, I was just like, "I can't... " It's very real even every time really. I'm like, "Okay." You have to make a decision like, "It's okay. It's okay to not be in control."

0:59:18.2 DB: Experience it.

0:59:18.5 KF: Experience it, yeah. And then you get past that, and you're like, "Oh, okay. This is what they're talking about." [chuckle] But if you don't get past that point, you never get past that point, and you don't realise what's on the other side of it. And so, yes, it's a huge thing, and it can be so good for women.

0:59:39.8 KF: I was reading a book about hormones for women. It's called the Hormone Cure, and it talks about that, too. That women need to have this time where they're just massaged there. It's really helpful actually for our mental health. I was like, "Oh, okay." And I was telling my husband, he's like, "I'll do that. That's great. Like I will help you with that whenever you want, we'll have our massage time."

1:00:09.9 KF: But just realizing it's not bad. I think so much in church we're taught like, "This is bad." Because just growing up, it's like, "It's bad, bad, bad, until you're married, and then it's great and fine. But we're not gonna talk about it, or what you do, or what it's supposed to feel like. At all."

1:00:21.7 DB: Exactly.

1:00:23.6 KF: It's not helping.

1:00:24.0 DB: A very good point.

1:00:24.9 KF: It's not helping to be like that. To have it be such a taboo, and then suddenly it's fine. Our brains can't really process that. It takes...

1:00:34.2 DB: That's... One of the hardest things for me to communicate with people who I'd only, I wouldn't diagnose as having scrupulosity. It's just a general, cultural belief is, "Once you get married, everything's okay. " No, it's not. The exception is not the rule. I'm not gonna throw a percentage out there, I have no idea. But I have yet to see that be the case where, "Yes, marriage is now, you get to... "

1:01:04.4 KF: Do it.

1:01:05.4 DB: "You understand your body, and you're experiencing the full benefits of it."

1:01:09.4 KF: No. No, not at all. Yeah, I'm like, "I don't know. I don't know what's down there." My husband's like, "What? What are you doing?" [chuckle]

1:01:18.4 DB: And you're not alone. We now have family discussions.

1:01:24.1 KF: Prudish.

1:01:24.7 DB: Yeah.

1:01:25.0 KF: Like, "I didn't know." Yeah.

1:01:28.6 DB: It's such a blessing, we have family discussion. Now I have three girls, and they're all married. And one of the most... Believe it or not, it's one of the most... What's the word I'm looking for? Not humble, but I'm proud. It feels so good when we're even at the dinner table, just us family, and we're talking about, in a very appropriate way but very open, about marital sex, and what it looks like, and how we can improve.

1:01:56.2 DB: We're not crossing boundaries or anything. Well, people might be listening who say, "You've already crossed a boundary." No, the fact that we can openly discuss, that is a good thing. That, "Oh, you know what, have you considered this? This may help." All of our bodies are different, and we go through phases.

1:02:12.7 DB: You talked about having an hysterectomy in your book. My wife has had a hysterectomy, that changes the body dramatically. What does sex look like after a hysterectomy? No one talks about that. And now, we do.

1:02:27.0 KF: We should, yeah. Because it's such an important part of our lives. And not in a gross way, but we think of it like, "Ooh." I know especially probably women who've grown up LDS, who are just like, "Ooh, you don't talk about that. That's not okay." Like you wife's book club like, "Ooh, no, we're not gonna do that." But...

1:02:48.7 DB: "I'll do it in private in my closet where no one sees me."

1:02:51.3 KF: Yeah, "I won't tell anyone."

1:02:52.4 DB: Maybe.

1:02:52.6 KF: Yeah, and I had a... My former sister-in-law, who's since divorced, but she was very open with these things. And so, after we got married, she's like, "Okay, what's gong on?" They let us use their hotel room right after we got married, before we went on our honeymoon. [chuckle]

1:03:09.4 KF: They're very...

1:03:10.3 DB: Cool.

1:03:10.8 KF: Very open. She's very open. So she's like, "Yeah, use the tools, this helps so much." And I was like, "What, we can? We're allowed to do that?" And she's like, "Yes." I'm like, "Okay." So just having people be open about it, really changed my view like, "Okay, other people are doing this, it's not just in the dark or sneaking around. You can't do this anymore."

1:03:32.4 DB: Absolutely. So I wanna be respectful of your time, and I have so many thoughts and questions. And maybe someday we'll have you back. I'm excited to hear the reception on this podcast. But the final question maybe I have for today is, this is a difficult experience, like we were talking at the beginning. How... First of all, how do recognize that this is an issue? And then, how can family best support us?

1:04:03.9 DB: What would you recommend that people can do? What is the best way to... I realise there's a broad experience here. One, being able to identify you have a problem. But let's take it from a place of... Well, you're welcome to go with it wherever you want, but I'm thinking specifically, how does a spouse help you now? How do they best support you?

1:04:28.8 KF: Yeah, that is, it's really difficult with OCD. First of all, they need to research it themselves and understand what's going on. If you're going to therapy, have them come with you to a session and talk to the therapist about, "Okay, what should I do in these situations?"

1:04:49.1 KF: Because we look to our spouses a lot of times for reassurance, which is a compulsion too. "Are my pants dirty? Can you look? Can you tell me if they're dirty or not?" And if they're like, "No, you're fine." "Okay I'm fine." For five minutes or something. And then you ask again, "Are you sure?" And as they provide that reassurance they're just really making the OCD worse. Even though we're like, "No, it feels better." It's really, it's not good.

1:05:16.2 DB: They're enabling it.

1:05:17.1 KF: It's enabling it, yeah. And they have to understand that that is... That is a bad thing to do. You think you're supporting your spouse, you're helping, you're helping them by saying, "No, you're okay, you're fine." But really that is, that is not what they should be doing, it seems counter-intuitive. I think if the spouse knows that also and doesn't say, "I'm not allowed to tell you." But, "What would your therapist say about that? What do you think... "

1:05:41.0 KF: We call him Dr. Bob, my therapist. "What would Dr. Bob say? Would he want me to tell you that?" I'm like, "Oh okay." "It's not that I don't love you, it's just this is for your own good." You have to stand up sometimes to the person who has OCD if you're the spouse. Which can be really difficult. But as long as they understand that that's what you're doing. [chuckle] You're not just being a jerk. That's important too.

1:06:08.2 DB: Do you have some sort of plan? Or did you... You both discuss possible solutions or approaches. You come up with it beforehand, so that doesn't feel so abrupt or whatever in the moment?

1:06:20.5 KF: Yeah.

1:06:20.8 DB: Okay.

1:06:21.3 KF: "Okay, I'm not gonna get you reassurance anymore." I'm like, "Okay. This is... It's your deal, you'll have to do this." And so yeah, just being really supportive. Supporting going to therapy. It can be hard. Especially if you have little kids. Who's gonna watch the kids? My husband was really supportive.

1:06:40.5 KF: Luckily he worked from home, so we were lucky. But he would sometimes... I was like, "Mum, come over and babysit." Or something when I had to go to therapy, because he knew it was important. Not demeaning your spouse for getting help, which I see sometimes. Husband's like, "Oh you don't need therapy."

1:06:56.6 DB: Oh absolutely.

1:06:58.2 KF: No support that. Support them getting the help that they need. Yeah, don't just say, "Oh stop. Just get better. Make yourself think what you're supposed to." You can't do that, you can't force yourself out of a mental illness. So I think just the support for spouses and parents. And knowledge. Like my mum, she read a book about how, supporting your loved one with OCD.

1:07:25.2 KF: What is his name? Hershfield has a great book about that, family members and OCD. If they read those books it's... I would see her reading that, and it's. "Oh that's so... " She's trying to help me. And it will help them. Don't make jokes about it. My dad would still send me stupid jokes like, "Oh, I'm so OCD." I'm like, "Dad." You know? [chuckle] So yeah, just be supportive and understanding what they're going through.

1:07:57.4 DB: I love it, thank you. Kari, this has been such a pleasure, and I wish I had discovered you when you first wrote it. This is...

1:08:06.0 KF: I know. I'm an introvert. I didn't publicise as well as I should have. [chuckle]

1:08:09.9 DB: Oh, that's quite alright. It's more I'm disappointed that our community... And maybe it's just me, maybe I wasn't aware. Maybe it was being talked about a lot and I just didn't pick up on it. But I wanna, I wanna the remind the audience, listeners, this is a real thing. Scrupulosity is a real thing.

1:08:27.9 DB: Scrupulosity is so hard to detect because it's not as apparent as traditional OCD, if I could call it that. You don't see somebody washing their hands 50 times a day. While Kari, that's also part of your mental health issues, is...

1:08:44.4 KF: Yeah, I was there. [chuckle]

1:08:45.6 DB: Contagion and whatnot. A lot of what I see is an absence of traditional OCD. It's spiritual OCD, which is scrupulosity, and it is a very real thing. I guess maybe in summary, if you're concerned or think, "Okay, do I have this?" Some things I have noticed, at least with people, clients that I've worked with, is when you feel like you have to go and routinely repent to get that good feeling again, that's a good indicator that you may be dealing with scrupulously.

1:09:20.4 DB: If you don't feel like you could have or build that relationship with the Lord and create those feelings on your own, that you need that mediator. That's not an absolute statement, definitely there's a role that leadership takes. But if you find, often I hear what people will say, "I think I need to go clear this again. Maybe I didn't tell them everything."

1:09:41.7 DB: Or, "I repented, but oh my goodness I need to go... " I see this with missionaries too, and it sometimes is created in the mission field where you're living this righteous... I wanna be careful with that word.

1:09:53.7 KF: Exactness.

1:09:55.6 DB: Exactness. I won't equate it to righteousness. We create this rigidity that gives this reward for living in the rigid life. Again, I'm emphasizing the rigidity isn't necessarily problem, it's how we're defining that relationship with the Lord and requiring that... That act to create it. I wish there was a better definition of it, but it is prevalent.

1:10:21.9 DB: And if you're concerned about it, pick up Kari's book, and study and research those topics. Her book is excellent. But even you mentioned in the book, a lot of what your, where your help came from is you personally doing the research and finding the right therapist eventually, was helpful. There is hope, there is help. And reach out, ask questions. Thank you so much, Kari.

1:10:52.8 KF: You're very welcome. Thanks for talking to me. [chuckle]

[music]

Brett and Shendi Share Life Lessons | The Impact of Pornography on Marriage

Full Transcript:

0:00:00.7 Narrator: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter Day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.

[music]

0:00:27.0 Daniel A. Burgess: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. And today we're gonna be continuing the discussion about how to navigate and discuss pornography within the family, between your spouse and your children. On today's episode we have Brett and Shendi, and I look forward to exploring their adventure with this topic. And so, let's turn it over to you guys. Introduce yourself, let us know about some details of your family. What's your status in the church and what your goal is.

0:01:00.9 Brett: I'm Brett Pingel, me and Shendi have been married, twelve years?

0:01:06.5 Shendi: Yeah.

0:01:07.0 Brett: Twelve years now. Just hit 12 years in April. We have four kids, ages from almost 11 to just turned a year.

0:01:18.9 Shendi: Both mostly from Utah, and we're active in church.

0:01:22.6 DB: Good. How old are your children?

0:01:27.8 Brett: Ten, nine, seven, one.

0:01:31.7 DB: Ooh, got them tight together and then you've got the... How many boys, how many girls?

0:01:39.1 Brett: Two and two.

0:01:39.8 DB: Two and two. Two older, two younger?

0:01:42.9 Brett: Boy... Girl, boy, boy, girl.

0:01:46.6 DB: Oh, got it. Alright, great. So they're getting ready to get into their teenage years, are you excited about that?

0:01:52.3 Shendi: Don't remind me.

[laughter]

0:01:57.2 Brett: Not sure I'm ready for a teenager.

0:02:00.5 DB: Yeah, it's, I don't think we could prepare for that. Perfectly, at least. I put out on our Facebook group, Improving Intimacy, a request to find couples who are willing to talk about their journey in discussing pornography and and a few other related topics. You reached out and said that you've had this discussion between each other and you're learning how to navigate that with your children.

0:02:28.0 DB: You've been married for 12 years, and... Tell us a little about that journey. What was it like for you guys? Was it a difficult topic? Did it come naturally? What was your experience?

0:02:41.3 Brett: I think for us it came out pretty early, 'cause I've had my own issues and I guess you could say addiction to pornography that I've dealt with for many years since I was a teenager. I don't know or remember at what point it came out. I'm pretty sure it came out even in the dating process before we ever got married. I think Shendi was aware of it.

0:03:07.6 Shendi: I don't think I realized how much he was into it, not that he was viewing it every day.

0:03:15.7 DB: You're talking about during the dating phase, Shendi?

0:03:18.7 Shendi: Yeah, yeah. When we were dating, I know that he said that he wasn't viewing every day, but I knew that had some addiction to looking at it. And then we just never really discussed it while dating, just that we knew that it was there and that it wasn't... Other than that, it wasn't really discussed until I really, I think I really realized until after we were married. I think within our first year was when is when I'd noticed that he was looking at things.

0:03:49.0 DB: So you're aware of it during the dating. What kept... Shendi, what kept you from exploring it more with him? Was it not a concern to you, or did you feel like it was resolved? What kept you from pursuing that concern or potential concern there?

0:04:07.0 Shendi: There's a lot of addiction in my family. And so, for us, I think it was just kinda I know it's there, but I don't think my family ever really deals with their addiction, on my side. And so, for when I was, what? 17 to 20 years old, we were just dating on and off, I just followed my family's steps of not really ever dealing with addictions or talking about them, just that you know they're there, and that's about it.

0:04:38.8 Shendi: And so, he told me, and I was like, "Okay." And just I left it, and I didn't feel like it was gonna affect me. Until after we got married, then I realized it affected me, in a different way than my family's history of addiction ever affected me.

0:04:54.2 DB: So Brett, when you were dating, do you feel like... If you could put your addiction, if your usage of pornography on a scale of one to 10, one being really just occasional, barely existing, to 10, it's consuming you daily for hours, where would you place yourself?

0:05:14.7 Brett: When we were dating?

0:05:15.9 DB: Yeah, when you were dating.

0:05:17.9 Brett: Maybe a five.

0:05:19.0 DB: A five, okay. And equate that...

0:05:23.1 Brett: It's never been one... I personally have a hard... It's an addiction, but I have a hard time calling it addiction, 'cause it's never consuming.

0:05:32.3 DB: Okay. And it...

0:05:32.9 Brett: I've never felt like, "I have to look, I have to look, I have to look." You know? It's never... It's something that's always there and every now and then I flip through it.

0:05:47.2 DB: So it's impressive that you weren't caught during dating youth, it sounds like you felt impressed or you needed to tell your soon-to-be wife, that this was a problem or... How did that come about?

0:06:01.1 Shendi: Well, we've known each other since we were 15.

0:06:04.2 Brett: Yeah, so we've known each other for a long time, and...

0:06:08.9 Shendi: We were really good friends.

0:06:10.1 Brett: We've always been able to talk.

0:06:12.9 Brett: I think that's the biggest thing for us is we've always had really good communication, and I've always felt like even my darkest secrets, I've been able to tell her.

0:06:24.4 DB: Wow.

0:06:25.0 Brett: And so it was never anything like, "Well, I'm gonna tell you something and you're not gonna like it." Or anything like that. It was always, I guess conversation with us was always really fluid.

0:06:35.2 DB: That's excellent. That's, wow, that's an ability I really encourage a lot of couples to have before they get married. So it was present. If you don't mind, if you're comfortable with sharing, when you say it's a five, how consuming was that? Was that a few minutes a day, once a week? How would you, on average, say, qualify?

0:07:00.1 Brett: Probably once a week.

0:07:00.9 DB: Once a week, okay. And so when you shared it with Shendi and she reacted the way she did, like, "Okay." What were you thinking? Was it like, "Okay, I did my part."? Or what was your experience on your end?

0:07:17.3 Brett: I'm trying to remember back that far.

[chuckle]

0:07:19.2 DB: Yeah, I guess it is a while ago. Really, forgive me. I do like to explore this a little bit because I wanna give people a sense of where they were and what it was like, and I think you may not be surprised, but a lot of people may be resonating with this a lot, like, "Oh my goodness, I was able to be very open, share this information, and it seemed to be the last thing we talked about until we got married." So I kind of wanna provide that to the audience.

0:07:45.0 Brett: Yeah.

0:07:45.4 DB: So if you can, I realize it's 12, 13 years ago, but what do you recall? In fact...

0:07:52.1 Brett: I think for me, there was a level of relief that she wasn't appalled or judgmental towards me. She was really understanding, "Okay, that's... No, I don't necessarily like it, but it is what it is, and I still love you." And for me, it was really relieving that, I guess that it wasn't a deal breaker.

0:08:20.0 DB: That's wonderful. So you get married, and about how long into your marriage, Shendi, did it become an issue? Or did you start to notice signs that, "Okay, this is a problem."? A few months, a year, how long into the marriage?

0:08:36.8 Shendi: I'm just gonna say six months to a year, 'cause we had accidentally gotten pregnant six months into the marriage and my first pregnancy was rather rough, and so I think our sex life had dwindled a little bit.

0:08:55.3 DB: Okay.

0:08:55.7 Shendi: And then we didn't have smartphones or... We had a laptop. We didn't have the smartphones or anything. I think I was going across the laptop one day, trying to remember some website I was looking at, and I'd come across it then. And then I just kind of, I felt really sick to my stomach, and I wasn't sure how to approach it, and then as I looked more, I saw a little bit more and I decided, "All right, I knew this, but I need to approach him about this because he needs to know how I feel about what he's doing."

0:09:29.5 DB: Wow.

0:09:30.0 Shendi: And I think that's the first time I'd realized for me that, "Okay, just because they have an addiction, or just because they have, I guess a problem, it was in our marriage, I don't need to stay silent, I need to at least talk to him 'cause he needs to know how I feel."

0:09:44.8 DB: So what were you feeling? You said disgust or sick, what were you thinking?

0:09:51.4 Shendi: No, I didn't feel disgust towards him. At first, I think I felt really sick to my stomach. I felt kind of like that he was looking at these things instead of coming to me and being honest and saying, "Hey, I need some intimacy." Or, "I'm feeling a little neglected." Or whatever his feelings were at the time.

0:10:17.4 Shendi: I kind of felt, I guess emotionally cheated on mostly, like he was just kinda going somewhere else for something that I could easily or readily give him, but he would choose rather to go somewhere else, and so I felt in a way betrayed as well.

0:10:32.0 DB: Right, right. So how long did it take you to approach him on that? Was it immediate? Or did you wait some time, you pray over it? What was your process in bringing this up with Brett?

0:10:44.1 Shendi: I don't think I prayed about it at all. I think it was more... I think the first time I kind of approached him and I was just like, "Hey," I think about after a week, I was like, "I saw this. What's your deal?" I don't think the first time... I think the first time in our marriage I really was not as patient as he makes me out to be. I think I kind of approached it...

0:11:05.3 DB: Understandable.

0:11:06.2 Shendi: In a hot-headed manner, and I said, "You know, this is not okay, and we need to fix this." He apologized and we had a few words, and then after that, we didn't really discuss it again until I found it again, and then I was like, "Look, we really gonna fix this."

0:11:26.5 Shendi: I think it was within another month that I found more and I just said, "We need to figure this out, 'cause I feel like you're not trusting me with your problem, or you're not wanting to talk to me about when you need certain things or when you want certain things." I think within that first, what? Two months, we really had a lot of discussions about it.

0:11:49.3 Brett: Yeah.

0:11:50.0 DB: Well, that's... I'm loving what I'm hearing, because it sounds like... And I realize we're removed, what? 11 years from that incident. But the way you're even describing it, it seems like you did in fact have patience around it, It doesn't sound like you were attacking him or yelling at him. Or were you? Was there any kind of anger expressed in that fashion?

0:12:14.4 Shendi: I think I cried a lot.

0:12:16.2 DB: Okay.

0:12:16.4 Shendi: I don't think... Did I ever yell at you?

0:12:18.5 Brett: I don't think there was ever really any yelling. It never felt like she was mad.

0:12:24.8 Shendi: More hurt.

0:12:25.8 Brett: She was more hurt, betrayed, things like that, than she was anything else.

0:12:31.6 DB: So from... Brett, from your perspective, did you feel like she was inviting with the conversation? Or did you... 'Cause sometimes spouses will say, "Talk to me, I'm here to talk," but there's still this emotional experience like, "You better not say anything bad about this or that you're doing it again." And so on one hand it's, "Talk to me about it, but there better not be anything new," kind of experience. What was your end of that experience?

0:13:02.6 Brett: No, I never felt... I don't know, I guess... Everything for me, it was always really positive. Like I said, she never really came at me attacking, she never got mad. I could just tell how I hurt she was. And I guess there were probably points where I didn't feel like she really understood what I was going through.

0:13:25.0 Brett: We have had our issues when it comes to intimacy, where I think we've been on different pages in different wavelengths, but at the same time, I never felt I was being attacked either for the issues I was having.

0:13:36.9 DB: That's excellent. Brett, at this point, when you were caught or she found out, how would you compare that usage to prior to your marriage? Would you say it was more than what you were experiencing before the marriage, less or about the same?

0:13:55.6 Brett: I think for a while there, it got worse, prior to the point where it was two or three times a week. But still never where it consumed me, but it did get worse for a period of time.

0:14:08.1 DB: Your wife pointed out that there's intimacy issues. Is that what you would also point that towards? Or what do you think was driving that behavior?

0:14:17.6 Brett: I think the lack of intimacy.

0:14:20.5 DB: So how did you guys start to navigate? Now it's all out on the table, we know this. Shendi is saying, "Hey, talk to me, I keep finding this stuff." How did it proceed from there, where did you guys go with it?

0:14:36.8 Shendi: I think we decided that we were gonna set up boundaries for him, to help him, first off. I think we decided to... He couldn't... I don't know, this might sound rude towards him, but he couldn't look at the laptop after, or get on the computer after certain time of a day. We were able to block certain sites or we put a password and him would...

0:15:03.9 Shendi: So it might sound like I was parenting him, but we both discussed, this is probably the best way for him, was for me to be more in control over the things that he was able to or do not get onto with our computer. And then after we both felt like it calmed down a little bit, we decided we were just gonna discuss more...

0:15:22.2 Brett: We just have more conversations.

0:15:25.0 Shendi: More conversation about it, "Hey, I'm struggling really bad today," and I was like, "Okay, how can we help you?" Or, "Okay, let's remove the laptop for the day," or things like that. You think, yeah?

0:15:39.8 Brett: Yeah.

0:15:40.2 DB: Was that helpful to you, Brett?

0:15:43.3 Brett: I think so. I'd be lying if I didn't say there were times where it felt like I was being controlled or being parented, but at the same time, it was the best thing for me at the time to help us go through a difficult time.

0:16:00.5 DB: I'm glad you...

0:16:01.1 Shendi: And it wasn't...

0:16:02.1 DB: Go ahead.

0:16:03.7 Shendi: Alright, and it wasn't like I... I don't think, in my mind, it wasn't like I was saying, "Well, you can't get on this, this and this time." We would sit down and we would say, "Okay, what's a good time for you not to be on the laptop?" For him to express it. 'Cause like he said, I didn't want to feel like I was controlling him or parenting him. I was his wife, his spouse, I wasn't his mother or babysitter, I guess.

0:16:33.2 DB: I'm glad that you both are pointing this out, that's one of the biggest concerns I have when I work with couples in navigating porn issues, is one becomes the manager in the relationship, and it sounds like you guys took measures to prevent that while also holding some sort of accountability with each other. Is that fair to say?

0:16:54.4 Brett: Yeah.

0:16:54.6 Shendi: Yeah.

0:16:56.1 DB: So how long did this go on, this managing, did it work? And if it did work, how long? And if it didn't, what did you guys end up doing?

0:17:05.1 Shendi: I think it was up until after we had our second son, or our first son, our second child.

0:17:10.4 Brett: Yeah, our second child.

0:17:12.0 Shendi: So probably it was two, two and a half years.

0:17:14.9 Brett: Yeah.

0:17:15.5 DB: Two and a half. So tell me, what that maybe average daily experience was, were you taking the computer away from Brett, or? How did that work logistically?

0:17:26.9 Shendi: He would usually bring it to me. Or I would just take it and I would just put it away. Or we even had a password on it that he didn't know. I think when we did get smart phones, he did ask me and brought me his phone and said, "Please put a password on it." And so I think we just kinda both, I don't think one of us really... After a while, I don't think one of us really took control. I think he realized that I hurt my feelings, and so we both worked on it together. Would you agree, yeah?

0:18:00.6 Brett: Yeah.

0:18:01.5 DB: And so after two and a half years of doing this, what happened then? Did things change, improve, or?

0:18:11.4 Brett: I think that it changed just 'cause I was learning how to... I guess my frequency was diminishing and I was learning how to deal with it better. I was getting to the point where I didn't need as much, I guess babysitting is the best way to put it.

[chuckle]

0:18:30.8 DB: Sure, sure.

0:18:31.5 Shendi: Well, I think our communication even got more better in those two years, because it was something that we were talking about more, and he was open and willing to let me express myself when I did catch other things or... He was willing to just sit there and he was willing to listen, and I was willing to listen to him, and I think we worked more on our communication. Then over time, I think we worked on our intimacy too afterwards, after we communicated more, if that makes sense?

0:19:06.0 DB: Yeah, absolutely, it does. Would you be willing to recall or share how one of those interchanges worked with you? You're bringing it up, how did those discussions work? I'm really liking what I'm hearing in that you listen to each other. That's a very difficult thing for people to do. Especially if you're finding pornography or another incident. How did you learn how to handle that, I guess maturely and as adults?

0:19:36.7 Shendi: I don't know... I don't know if there was ever anything that we learned to do. It's just kind of been, that's always been our relationship. I've always been comfortable talking to Shendi, and she's always been a very understanding person. I mean, I don't know, I guess is not much to say in how we learned, the communication has always just been there, for me.

0:20:06.0 Shendi: I think... I think for me the communication has always been there, but I think for me, it was kind of a lack of... What's the right word? Understanding, or lack of empathy. I don't know. I would find myself sometimes...

0:20:24.4 DB: A lack of empathy from you or from him?

0:20:27.4 Shendi: For him, for his struggles. I think I was not very sensitive towards any of his struggles. Even his daily struggles with work or school, and I found that I was more less empathetic, I guess that's the right way of putting it. And so when I would find those problems, I knew that I should talk about it with him, I knew that I should share my feelings, but I think I was growing increasingly more frustrated, just 'cause I didn't see results. So basically I wanted them.

0:21:02.3 Shendi: And so what I would do is I would... I would... Every time I would say my prayers or my personal prayers, I would just, "Help me to love my husband." And it wasn't that I didn't love him, it was that I needed to learn how to love him in the way that I guess God brought him, not just as my husband, but as my friend and a son of God. And so I would honestly, I would say a prayer, "Help me to love my husband." Then it was in, "Love him in a different way."

0:21:35.2 DB: Tell me more about that different way? What was the different way that you were discovering?

0:21:41.2 Shendi: Well, it was, I loved him and I appreciated him, but I don't think I quite wholeheartedly... I don't know, it's hard to explain. I knew who he was, and I knew that he was my best friend and that I loved him and I wanted the best for him, but I think I would just kind of get irritated.

0:22:07.0 Shendi: I was like, "Okay, well, you're struggling, let's move on. Let's move on." 'Cause it's kinda how I was, I was raised to, "You're struggling, alright you've said it, now move on." And I was like, well, you know, I don't think God ever looked at us and it's like, "Really? Okay, another prayer about your struggle, let's move on." And I'm like, that's not very...

0:22:29.3 Shendi: In the long term, I didn't feel like that was the most sympathetic answer. All of us wanna be heard and all of us wanna be understood, even if it's the same exact thing over and over again. So I felt like I needed to love him in a eternal perspective. Is that the right way how to say it? I don't know.

0:22:48.2 DB: I think you're getting me a little emotional here. The way you're describing this is, Shendi, is the message that I hope a lot of people hear. This is key. It is hard to describe that empathy. It's one thing to say, "I'm your friend, I'm here to talk about it," it's a completely different thing to be able to say, "I want to understand."

0:23:12.0 DB: And the analogy you gave was Heavenly Father doesn't say, "Okay, get on with... Move on." Right" He takes time to understand. I don't know if that necessarily means you need to go into all the nitty gritty and the details of what you're viewing, but... Brett, did you experience that from Shendi on your end? Did you feel like, "Oh my goodness, I'm able to talk about this even more." I know you have an open communication with her, but did you feel that empathy start to be increased in the relationship?

0:23:46.2 Brett: I did, and it's something that we've talked about. I think she's still working on it, even still today. Because there was a point in our relationship where it was like... And not just with my issue with pornography, but like she said, every day where I'd come home and I'd be really upset from work, and she just kind of be like, "Okay, well, you're home now, move on, deal with it."

0:24:08.6 Shendi: Not that I would say that to your face.

[chuckle]

0:24:11.9 Brett: That was kinda the vibe that I would get.

0:24:15.9 DB: Yeah, yeah.

0:24:19.7 Brett: And through our discussions, I've definitely seen a change recently. And over the years, really, not just recently, but there has been a change and I have seen her try to be more understanding and know where I'm coming from, and just wanting to see me be better, in every sense of the word.

0:24:44.6 DB: Was there a point in your relationship, and it sounds like maybe not, but I don't wanna assume it, that Shendi, maybe you said, "Okay, again, this is happening and I can't have this anymore. I'm done."? Was that an experience that you had or considered?

0:25:05.5 Shendi: I think there was a point about, was it four years ago? Where he had lost his job. And so he became quite set back in his old ways, I guess, where he was just struggling, and it was the same conversation or the same maybe argument that we had. And then I would find the porn again, and that would just add on to it.

0:25:31.5 Shendi: And I think we'd hit quite a low point, and I just said, "If this doesn't, you know, if this doesn't get fixed or if we can't discuss this like we used to, then I'm gonna have to be done." And I think it wasn't just necessarily the porn, but I think it was everything else, and then that one just kinda added to it.

0:25:51.4 DB: Yeah. It sounds like it was a really stressful time in your life, and you both were kind of burnt out.

0:26:00.8 Shendi: Yeah.

0:26:00.9 DB: How long ago was that? How many years ago?

0:26:04.5 Brett: That was back in 2013.

0:26:09.0 DB: Okay. About five... What is that now? [chuckle] We're in 2019.

0:26:12.2 Brett: Six years ago.

0:26:13.2 DB: Yeah. Wow.

0:26:15.6 Brett: We had moved to Nevada.

0:26:16.8 Shendi: We just have had a new baby.

0:26:18.6 Brett: Just have had a new baby.

0:26:20.1 DB: Oh my goodness.

0:26:20.4 Brett: You know, I'd been in a job for three months and lost it.

0:26:25.9 DB: This is what we often interview for intake. When we have new clients come in, we check for all these major life events. This is usually why people are coming in, is you had like the big three or four; a move, life-changing event, a baby, loss of job. This was huge, a lot of stress, which...

0:26:48.2 Shendi: Yeah.

0:26:48.2 Brett: Yeah, all at the same time. [chuckle]

0:26:51.5 DB: No wonder. What was nice here though is, I like... Shendi, what you said was, "We need to be able to talk about this like we did before." A lot of couples don't have that experience to fall back on, and so when you hit this major point in your life, in your marriage, if you didn't have those positive experiences, do you... We all hope to think that we would be just as encouraging, but do you feel like if you didn't have those positive experiences to fall back on, you would have been as willing?

0:27:22.5 Shendi: I'm not sure. I mean, we were able to talk once before. And I had always knew that I needed somebody who I really knew before I could marry just because of my personality and things that had happened in my past, I really needed a good friend. And I needed him to be a friend first, before I married him.

0:27:47.8 Shendi: I think if we hadn't have been, I don't think we would have maybe had a strong of a relationship. I think I would have maybe cut off our relationship and not talk to him like I do now.

0:28:02.0 DB: You mean during the dating phase, is that what you mean?

0:28:06.4 Shendi: Yeah. Yeah.

0:28:07.2 DB: Oh, yeah.

0:28:08.5 Shendi: I think because we are friends for a really long time and we learn how to communicate, and then we learn how to communicate even more in our marriage, that helped us later on when we had that big problem. Because I feel like if you don't know how to communicate to yourself and you don't know how to express your feelings, but then your spouse doesn't reciprocate listening or expressing their feelings as well, I think it just leads to shutting off and feeling like maybe the other person doesn't understand or doesn't want to understand.

0:28:45.9 Shendi: And so I think where I already knew that he wanted to understand my feelings and cared about my feelings, that I think it was easier for us to fall back on to what we used to do, where we used to talk a lot.

0:28:58.1 DB: Yeah, that's wonderful. My goodness. You mentioned also that having these discussions helped improve your intimacy. Is that... Did I hear you guys correctly?

0:29:09.4 Shendi: Yeah.

0:29:10.2 DB: How did that help? Being able to... I mean, I don't wanna make the assumption again, just being able to talk openly helps that experience. But here you are dealing with pornography, and what a lot of couples experience is because pornography is mixed into it, it actually makes the intimacy more difficult. How did these discussions allow for it to improve?

0:29:31.9 Brett: I guess having the understanding that I wasn't necessarily choosing the pornography over her. I knew I was able to talk really things with her and really talk about where it was all coming from, and trying to get to a point where she knew that it wasn't me necessarily choosing it over her. I think that's where it improved our intimacy, our ability to talk and things like that.

0:30:04.7 DB: What about you, Shendi? What was it like for you? How did that help improve your side of the intimacy?

0:30:15.5 Shendi: I think that... 'Cause I always kinda had the issues of low self-esteem, like I said before, things that happened to me as a child, and so I think I had a lot of intimacy issues and a hard time for me to realize that maybe he actually did love me or want me. And so when he would communicate to me, "I want you. I need you," or send little text back and forth, I think it helped me realize, "Okay, yeah, he does want me."

0:30:49.8 Shendi: And he was able to communicate that with me more, like he would talk to me more about it, instead of just coming up and hugging on me and kissing me and then he's like, "Okay, let's do this." It was more of a, "Okay. He wants me for more than just having sex," or things like that. So for him to communicate with me to be like, "I do love you, and I do want you," more than just to satisfy the need of wanting to look at pornography, I guess. It was he actually did want me, and it wasn't, pornography wasn't a substitute.

0:31:24.3 DB: You felt that from him?

0:31:27.0 Shendi: Yeah. I felt like, for a long I felt like pornography was a substitute for me. And so in my mind it was he was cheating on me, in my mind, because he was substituting the pornography for me, and then when he would communicate, "I want you and I need you," or "Hey, look, I'm struggling with... I'm really tempted to look at pornography."

0:31:49.2 Shendi: And he would tell me that and it'd be like, "Oh okay, he's not... It's not that he... That we're not having sex right now, it's that he, he's actually struggling with something and he's willing to talk to me about that struggle. And it's not that he's trying to replace me." 'Cause if he was replacing me, I feel like that he would not want to discuss it with me.

0:32:08.4 DB: Yes, yes, yes.

0:32:09.8 Shendi: If it makes sense?

0:32:10.7 DB: Right. Wow, that's a huge paradigm shift to be able to start... To believe his words, "He's flirting with me, he's really wanting me, he's craving me," and believing his words and embracing that. That's a beautiful step forward. Now, these experiences, how have they helped shape your teaching your kids? They're about to enter into their teenage years, got a couple of years on the oldest one there. How has that shaped your conversations with the children?

0:32:43.8 Brett: I think they've allowed us to be a lot more open with our children. I feel, especially in LDS culture, I feel like sex has become very taboo. It's not something that you should ever discuss.

0:33:00.9 Shendi: And talk to your parents. [chuckle]

0:33:02.9 Brett: And so I think these experiences between me and Shendi have really allowed us to be open with our children.

0:33:08.6 DB: And not so shameful towards them.

0:33:11.8 Brett: Yeah. I feel like they can come and tell us, "Hey, I saw a naked person," and they wouldn't feel like we would come down on 'em, shame 'em, things like that. And so I feel like there's just a lot of openness.

0:33:29.4 DB: So how do you handle that with a 10-year-old? What does that open conversation look like? What kind of words do you use or how do you gauge your language with your children on those topics? "I saw a naked person." What do you say next?

0:33:42.9 Shendi: Well, we had an incident, what was it, two years ago, where a friend of our daughter had shown her something on YouTube. I checked the iPads and stuff after they're done playing with them, just so, keep an eye out, 'cause I know that they're happening at such a young age. And I come across some stuff, and I...

0:34:06.7 Shendi: So I just, I went up to her and I mean, just feel be as honest, I don't wanna skirt around it because it's there, and I need to be as honest with her as I possibly can. And so I said, "Is there something you wanna tell me?" And she said, "No," and I said, "Alright." I said, "Well," I said, "I found this."

0:34:26.9 Shendi: And what 10-year-old is honestly wants to say, "Well, I found stuff." And so I said, "I found some things on the iPad that were inappropriate and you probably should not have seen," and I said, "What happened?" I was trying not to shame her or make her feel guilty, or make her feel like she can't come to me. And she just said, "Well, my friend wanted to look up... " What was it? "How babies were made," or whatever.

0:34:58.5 DB: Oh yeah, yeah.

0:35:00.6 Shendi: And I said, "Well, we already have that discussion." And she goes, "Yeah, but she wanted to show me some other things." I said, "Okay." I said, "Well, when she showed you those things, how did that make you feel?" And she goes, "Well, it kinda made me feel, yuck, or sick in my stomach." And I said, "Okay."

0:35:14.6 Shendi: I said, "Well, why didn't you come talk to me?" And she goes, "Well, I was a little scared. And then after she left, I didn't think about it." And I said, "Okay." I said, "Well, sometimes you just forget things, but that's okay." She said, "So... " So we talked about how she felt, and then we talked about in the future, if something like this happens, what can she do or who she'd talk to, who are her safe people, I guess.

0:35:43.9 Shendi: And we said, "Some of these things might make you feel a certain way," and I said, "and that's okay and it's normal." I said, "The only... " What I told her is, "The only problem is, is when you're looking at it all the time." I said, "Or when you feel like you need to look at it." I said, "Then that's kind of a problem. Because I don't want you to feel like... "

0:36:00.8 DB: Or keep it a secret.

0:36:01.4 Shendi: Yeah, and I said, "I don't want you to feel like that you can't come talk to me, but you wanna feel like you wanna talk to your dad and talk to me." And just because it was our daughter, I didn't wanna exclude my husband, and I want her to feel like she could talk to both of us, not just mum.

0:36:21.1 DB: Oh wow.

0:36:21.7 Shendi: And so we did it with both of us sitting there. We sat her down, the both of us and we said, "We know that how this works, we know how babies are made, and if you feel uncomfortable about of anything, come talk to Mum and Dad. And if you feel uncomfortable talking to dad, you can talk to me or... " I wanted her to know that we are both there, not just one of us, just because she was female like her mum.

0:36:46.0 DB: Yeah, you've identified it as safe, and I like that word. Even when I have kids come in to the office, that's one of the very first discussions that I have with their parents there, is... Parents bringing them in because of exposure to pornography or whatnot. We identify immediately safe people. We don't just have this discussion around sex or naked people with any person. Even though you may view me as a therapist, this is not sacred or shameful... Excuse me, secret, not... It is sacred.

0:37:17.5 DB: It's not secret. We don't hold those secrets from the safe people, and we identify as... I really like that you did that, but also acknowledge that there may be still discomfort around that, "If you're not comfortable talking to Dad about it, still come talk to me." Have you seen her... Has there been episodes since then where she was able to follow through with those discussions?

0:37:39.8 Shendi: No, I don't think she's ever... I don't think so.

0:37:44.1 Brett: Yeah, I agree. We haven't had to address that issue again yet.

0:37:48.8 DB: Oh good. [chuckle] That's good.

0:37:51.2 Shendi: Yes. [chuckle]

0:37:54.5 DB: So in general, how does your conversations around... It sounds like you did talk to her about how babies are made. Is this an ongoing discussion? Do you freely talk about sexuality in the home? How do you continue to set that atmosphere within your home?

0:38:11.1 Brett: I think, just 'cause especially the day and age we're in, we try to have some kind of discussion, especially with our daughter, with her starting to hit the puberty age, I think we try to sit down to every...

0:38:30.1 Shendi: We sit down with the kids, I think general every couple of months, and we do have a discussion on, "If somebody touches you here, if somebody touches you there." What do we call it?

0:38:41.7 Brett: Stop touch.

0:38:42.6 Shendi: Stop touch or don't touch.

0:38:44.4 DB: Oh. Love that.

0:38:48.5 Shendi: What's the other phrase they usually use that we didn't? "Because sometimes stop touch kinda feels good, so it's not a good touch or bad touch, it's stop touch or don't touch." And so we try every couple of months, we try to have a family home evening based on, "Okay, if you see this," or "Can you see that?" And we try not to go into...

0:39:10.7 Brett: Too much detail, but enough for they to understand. Yeah.

0:39:16.7 DB: How do you feel the other kids are picking up? Is this just for the older kids, or you do this even with the seven year old and the one year old? I guess the one year old really isn't picking up too much.

0:39:25.3 Brett: Our seven year old just kinda giggles at it. It's kinda the same with our nine year old. I don't think they're at to the point where they really understand yet.

0:39:33.6 Shendi: Well, our nine year old has some... We're currently in that process of trying to get us tested for autism and ADHD and stuff.

0:39:41.0 DB: Oh wow. Yeah.

0:39:41.9 Shendi: So when we had our baby a year ago, we were waiting for the question for the boys to ask. And they never really did until maybe about six months ago, our seven year old was just like, "Well, how are babies made?" I said, "Alright." I said, "Well... " We just basically gave him the basic talk. I didn't say, "Well, Mummy and Daddy love each other and when they get together... " And it's like, "Well, you have the penis and the vagina, and you have to... "

0:40:11.3 Shendi: Tried to explain it to him as best we can, "You gotta put them together. And God gave in certain ways, and that's how they make a baby." And he was just like, "Oh, okay," and he didn't mention it again. But then when I tried to explain to my nine year old, he just...

0:40:26.3 Brett: He busted up laughing.

0:40:27.7 Shendi: Yeah, he stopped for a second and he just busted up. He goes, "That's silly," and then he was just done.

0:40:35.3 DB: Interesting. That's a typical reaction from a kid whether there's autism or not. So it's impressive that you're still engaging with that conversation and setting that tone for the family. What would you, from your experiences, would you advise other parents?

0:41:00.5 DB: Anything that you have learned that, "Oh, my goodness, this is not the best way to handle it."? Or how you would do it differently? What do you feel would be the most important thing to take away from what you're sharing today?

0:41:11.4 Brett: I think for me, the most important thing...

0:41:14.3 Shendi: Don't attack your children.

0:41:15.8 Brett: Yeah. Whether it's between spouses or dealing with children, is to be open, to be understanding, and never make someone feel shamed. And that's been the biggest thing with Shendi I've learned, is that she's never shamed me for my addiction. She's never shamed me for looking. She's always wanted to, I think understand why I look, why I felt the need.

0:41:48.8 Brett: And I think we were able to pass it down to our kids. Our 10 year old going on 11 year old were to come to us tonight and say, "Okay, this is what I did." I think we'd be able to sit down and have an open conversation where she didn't feel judged by us. She didn't feel shamed by us. She didn't feel like she was the worst person on earth, but she knew that she was loved and still cared for no matter what. I think that's the best we can give your kids is not attacking them for looking at pornography or anything else.

0:42:25.1 DB: I'm curious, Brett, do you think there would be a point in your children's life that if your 10 year old, or I guess any one of your kids, was struggling with this, would you share with them your personal experiences with this?

0:42:41.2 Brett: Absolutely.

0:42:43.3 DB: I really value that. I think that's something that...

0:42:47.5 Brett: I think...

0:42:48.0 DB: Go ahead.

0:42:49.5 Brett: I guess if there's anything good that can come out of my pornography addiction would be to share my own experiences and why, and take from my personal experiences to help my kids, or any of my kids.

0:43:06.2 DB: I love that. I think that's important for us to do. I think we're so hesitant to even share our own personal experiences around this. I don't know if it's a fear of triggering our kids or somehow letting them know that, "Hey, it's okay because I had the problem." But the reality is, I think our youth need to see more great people like yourself that, "Hey, this is a reality," and we can still be great Latter-day Saints if we handle it in this way, and are supportive with our spouse in this way.

0:43:37.3 DB: And so I really praise you both for handling it in the way that you have. And I think the key for me here was hearing the friendship that occurred prior to marriage. I realize not a lot of relationships or some relationships don't have that blessing of having such a good relationship before.

0:43:56.8 DB: Which is kind of ironic, that's what we want to do. We want to marry our best friends. To be able to... It seems like a no-brainer. But I think it actually isn't as common as is... I hope this isn't me just being nay-saying, but I don't see that a lot. A true friendship, to be able to say, "I know who you are. I know, your heart."

0:44:19.2 DB: And Shendi, you even said, even with that though, you established some boundaries, and that's completely healthy and appropriate in a relationship, even a good friendship like that, like you have. And then it continues to develop.

0:44:31.1 Shendi: I definitely got lucky.

0:44:31.5 DB: What's that?

0:44:32.0 Shendi: I said I definitely got lucky. [chuckle]

0:44:35.1 DB: Wow, that's beautiful. I think this is a good lesson to hear for me, and I hope the listeners are getting what they needed out of this. Any final thoughts?

0:44:46.8 Shendi: I don't think so.

0:44:47.6 Brett: No, we're good.

0:44:49.7 DB: I think we covered a majority of your married life here.

[chuckle]

0:44:55.5 Shendi: Yeah. Well, I think it's the same thing, it's not just a male problem, it can be a female problem too. And I think sometimes the first impulse is to lash out, and even if you do lash out, just be quick to say, "I'm sorry." Sometimes in a moment of anger, you say something that you shouldn't or you acted the way you shouldn't. And try to be open and honest with each other.

0:45:21.0 Shendi: Even if it takes a few days to finally communicate your whole feelings, or a couple of weeks even. I think it's just, that was our biggest thing, and I think that's the big thing that helped us the most, is communicating. And even if we struggle with communication, we were at least trying to communicate.

0:45:41.3 Brett: Yeah. That's the biggest thing for me is talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. Even if at some point it feels really uncomfortable, just keep talking, because that's, ultimately learning that communication is what's gonna keep moving forward.

0:46:00.3 DB: I appreciate that insight from both of you. I appreciate you taking the time to meet with me here today, and wish you continued success in your navigating this with you, and each of you and your family. Thank you.

0:46:14.6 Shendi: Thank you.

0:46:14.9 Brett: Thank you.

Developing a Healthy Sexuality | Interview with Hope Orr - Owner of Elevated Boudoir

Hope Orr is the owner and photographer of Elevated Boudoir in Sandy, Utah. Through her own journey, Hope has been able to work through shame and insecurities around her body and sexuality in order to step more fully into who she is. 

Hope is passionate in helping women of all backgrounds embrace and celebrate their body. Her dream is to invite all women to connect with themselves on a deeper level, and show up more fully and unapologetically. Hope offers Boudoir Photography as a way to allow women to see themselves as they really are; brilliant, empowered, sexy, and strong. 

You can see more of her work or book a session by visiting

www.elevatedboudoir.com

Hope has a private Facebook group for women interested in connecting with others in learning to embrace themselves and their body more fully. You can join by visiting 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/elevatedboudoir/

---

Hope Orr is the owner and photographer of Elevated Boudoir in Sandy, Utah. Through her own journey, Hope has been able to work through shame and insecurities around her body and sexuality in order to step more fully into who she is.  

Hope is passionate in helping women of all backgrounds embrace and celebrate their body. Her dream is to invite all women to connect with themselves on a deeper level, and show up more fully and unapologetically. Hope offers Boudoir Photography as a way to allow women to see themselves as they really are; brilliant, empowered, sexy, and strong. 

You can see more of her work or book a session by visiting

www.elevatedboudoir.com

Hope has a private Facebook group for women interested in connecting with others in learning to embrace themselves and their body more fully. You can join by visiting 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/elevatedboudoir/

Full Transcript:

0:00:00.5 Narrator: Welcome to Improving Intimacy, a podcast to help single and married Latter-day Saints strengthen their family connections and marriages. Daniel A. Burgess is the host of Improving Intimacy. Daniel's a marriage and family therapist, father, husband and author. Here's Daniel on this episode of Improving Intimacy.

[music]

0:00:28.5 Daniel A. Burgess: Welcome to another episode of Improving Intimacy. Today, I'm excited to have Hope Orr here, and to hear her story and what she does, and I think everybody in our audience will be curious to learn. And I think what we're gonna do here is we're gonna have this podcast, we're gonna give it an opportunity for people to hear after we publish. And then I would personally like to invite Hope back and maybe do a live question and answer online with everybody. But let's go ahead and kick this off and... Hope, who are you, and what do you do?

0:01:02.4 Hope Orr: I am a boudoir photographer. I work with women who are wanting to celebrate their body, who want to show up more fully and, I guess, whole in the world, and... Yeah, I don't know.

[laughter]

0:01:22.4 DB: That's exciting. This is great. So I'm bringing you in because one of the biggest things I see within my Improved... In the Improving Intimacy group is how frequently both men and women are curious, interested and wanting to find a good photographer, a boudoir photographer. And so there's a lot of questions around that, so I was excited to see somebody of your background, you did serve a mission, and you're now providing this service to women who desire and want it. What got you here? What made you decide? Were you a photographer before? This natural transition? What was it?

0:02:10.1 HO: Yeah, that's a good question. I have been a photographer for 10 years. I grew up... My dad is a producer, a film producer for the church, and so he actually kind of mentored me as I grew up on how to take good photos. And so I've done a lot of different type of photography throughout my life but boudoir photography is really where I find the most meaning and fulfillment, and I'm most passionate about it. And so it's more of a recent, in the last few years, journey that I've been on, offering this to other people, and then also experiencing it for myself.

0:02:54.5 DB: So tell me a little bit more about that journey, that experience. As you're talking, the audience obviously can't see, but your face lightens up, it glows, as you're talking about, "This is a great opportunity." And we're gonna get into maybe some of the pushback or the controversies around it. You're shaking your head, "Yes, yes." I personally know that as I've entered into this profession and kind of stretched the boundaries around sexual health and insight... So what am I seeing when I hear you say journey and experience and passion? What's making you glow about it?

0:03:29.9 HO: Yeah. So when I returned from my mission a number of years ago, I remember my mission president inviting me to pray every day to get married. And I think that's kind of funny that we tell 20-year-olds to pray for that.

0:03:45.5 DB: Yes. Get married and six months when you return, and... Yes.

0:03:51.4 HO: Yeah. So I was doing that and one day it occurred to me... I realized, "Okay, if this actually happened, let's say God answers my prayer, I'm gonna find someone this year, get married this year, am I ready for that?" And I realized I had a lot of shame around my body, around my sexuality, around my sexual desires, and also a lot of... How do you put it? I did not feel like I was really educated or prepared for that type of stuff in my life.

0:04:31.2 DB: When you say stuff, you're talking about sex? Intimacy?

0:04:36.3 HO: Yes, yeah. Yup, all of the above, about... I guess with the idea of, okay, I'm gonna get married, and all of a sudden, I'm gonna start having sex with a man, and I don't know really anything about my own body, about sex, about so many different things. And so it was quite miraculous. Shortly after that occurred to me, I was given people and resources in my life to be able to start a self-development journey for myself and learn, and also release a lot of the shame around my sexuality.

0:05:18.1 DB: So, pause, 'cause you did something that I'm very impressed with, and that I usually only see occur after marriage, is you had this insight, this awareness that you weren't ready, you didn't understand your own sexual health, your own sexual desires. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Was it literally that? Was it an epiphany? Was it in your prayers? Was it walking down the street? What allowed you to have that insight? If I could ask you. I realize that's still ambiguous, but what was that discovery before marriage?

0:06:01.2 HO: I know part of it was looking at, "Okay, how do I want to create my life?" And realizing like, "Okay, if I'm going to have what I want in life, I need to be in a place right now where I'm ready for it." And I think that that is applicable to any point in our life, like, "Okay, you want more money, alright, do you feel ready for that?" Or different things. And so I believe that we have to look at what we want to create and then look at what beliefs, what narrative are we saying in our head that is keeping us from getting to that point. So I've done a lot of self-development in my life, and so that was definitely part of it. It was, "Okay, if I want to get married, what is holding me back?"

0:06:54.6 DB: Amazing, I can't tell you how important that is. I see, maybe if we categorize it in two or three ways, those who don't have that awareness at all or have this general perspective of things will work out in the marriage, or we'll discover these things. They don't even... And by the way, this is not a criticism. This is just how we're trained in relationships. Our parents never taught us how to think about this. So this is why I'm finding it's really impressive and fascinating, is you're falling into... And so there's a second group that may do what you just did, yeah, I don't think I'm really ready for marriage. There are aspects about myself... I know we've had children who've been married, who were concerned about body image. And so there's that group where they're kind of aware, but their course of action to improve that is either absent or they don't know how, or, again, they think it's gonna just work out in the marriage.

0:07:55.0 HO: Yup.

0:07:56.5 DB: But you fall into... I'm going off the cuff here, there's probably more dynamics to this, but it seems like you fall into a third group where you not only had this insight, this wonderful insight, but you had the awareness of asking questions that may be stretched you or encourage yourself to be prepared way before that ever happened. That's fascinating to me. I know you kind of answered that already, but where did you get it... Do you think that's intrinsic to you or do you feel like your parents taught you? What allowed you to have that skill?

0:08:33.7 HO: Let's see. I definitely grew up in a home where we were always encouraged to learn and grow and improve ourselves, and particularly, seek after truth and study for ourselves. And so that was a big thing, was I guess finding answers for myself. So that's part of it.

0:08:58.6 DB: I love that. So, you were encouraged, throughout your life, to be an individual, and to create your own relationship with yourself or with Heavenly Father, or whatever that is, is you're asking yourself the questions and determining your own path. I love that. Is that about right?

0:09:15.7 HO: Yeah, and I think also a big part of it with my own faith journey, with my own sexual health journey, as I learned more, especially about having a healthy relationship with my body and with my sexuality, realizing that I get to be my own person. And so I think that that also plays a huge role in that, in realizing that I can find the truth for myself, I can find answers. I don't have to look to other people outside of me to feel good about myself or to create whatever life it is that I want to.

0:09:52.2 DB: Was that immediate? I know I cut you off before you started going to more of what you did. You got resources. Did you have that awareness before those resources or was that what kind of developed out of seeking out resources and helping, or both?

0:10:08.0 HO: I'd say both. It was a mix, for sure. Yeah.

0:10:10.4 DB: And do you mind if we explore what you did to improve and stretch yourself and to be more authentic. What course of action did you take?

0:10:21.4 HO: One huge thing was learning about mindfulness and meditation, learning about what was going on in my mind, what fears I had, what insecurities I had. And then another, I was in a Facebook group and someone had shared a post... I don't know if I can share names or not?

0:10:39.1 DB: Absolutely. Yes. Yes.

0:10:40.3 HO: Okay. Awesome.

0:10:43.0 DB: Please. The whole purpose of my group is to provide good resources. Share away.

0:10:46.6 HO: Great. Awesome. I was in a women's Facebook group and somebody shared that there was going to be a workshop. It's a non-profit organization and she's a sex educator. And so I knew that I needed to talk to someone just to learn and figure out my body and stuff, and I was really scared. I needed someone who was safe, and so I emailed her and I said, "Hey, I'm really interested in this workshop but I feel a little funny being this young, single, Mormon girl showing up to... " It was like... I don't know. I think it was like a honeymoon, something having to do with sex, obviously, and I was like, "I don't wanna be this uneducated little young girl showing up," and so she invited me to come to have a one-on-one session with her, and that completely changed my life.

0:11:41.7 DB: Thank you, and please don't hold back your tears if you don't want to. This is emotional work. This is powerful. This is exciting and the audience wants to hear that. What would you tell somebody who's interested in doing a course like that? How to be prepared? Or what was it like for you?

0:12:02.8 HO: Meaning working with... Going in to work with her?

0:12:06.0 DB: Yeah. Yeah. Was it awkward or kind of... Tell us what you would expect, or what a new person would expect going into something like that.

0:12:14.9 HO: That's a great question. Well, for one thing, She made it so... I just felt so safe. I didn't even know her but I just felt so safe and so understood, especially with her response, 'cause I told her like, "Hey, I'm kind of scared," and she responded and said, "I totally get it, no worries, I can relate." And so just knowing that she understood where I was coming from, and then going in and having that one-on-one session with her, where we just sat and talked. And the first few sessions I had, it was releasing just a lot of shame around all sorts of things, like thinking that I had a pornography addiction when I was young, and looking back, I had never even seen pornography. But I thought that I was... Or thinking I had a masturbation addiction and all these different things, and feeling so much shame. And being able to talk with someone who was educated, who understood so many of these things. And it wasn't, I don't know... It wasn't like it was a confessional or anything like that... [chuckle]

0:13:19.4 DB: No, I follow you.

0:13:19.9 HO: Okay.

0:13:20.4 DB: You're having these discoveries...

0:13:22.0 HO: Yeah.

0:13:22.4 DB: And you're recognizing as... So you said it was a workshop but it sounds like it was kind of one-on-one.

0:13:27.6 HO: This one... Yeah. Because I was afraid to do the workshop, she said, "Come in and have a one-on-one session with me." So this was just me and her talking.

0:13:35.4 DB: So, as you're taking it, you're discovering, "Oh my goodness, I really didn't have a porn addiction, and masturbation wasn't even an issue. It was just part of my healthy development."

0:13:46.1 HO: Yeah. And I grew up thinking I was gonna go to hell or I wasn't gonna... I wouldn't be able to have kids or... You know, something like I was gonna be punished because like...

0:13:55.9 DB: Because you're having this behavior.

0:13:56.7 HO: Yeah. Yeah. And so there was just so much with that, and then also just so much shame about how I learned about sex, all those different things that we all have experiences growing up with whatever, with our bodies, with sex, where we tend to feel shame around those things. And so being able to talk with someone and be validated in my experience, and just being heard, and having a safe place, and also a safe place to ask questions, I asked all sorts of questions and... So, yeah... So the beginning was a lot of...

0:14:28.2 DB: You're the perfect client. You're coming in with questions.

0:14:32.6 HO: So many people have told me that.

[chuckle]

0:14:33.9 DB: And it's fascinating because we get a lot of people... And again, this is not a criticism, it's... One thing, as a provider of somebody who's doing... My passion is to improve sexual health and sexual awareness, and I get so... So many times clients coming in, male and female, and I want to improve this, but they don't want to ask the hard questions, because there are some preconceived ideas there. Now, you brought up pornography. I'm gonna put you on the spot here. We talked about this before, and you get to say whether or not you wanna an answer. I think this is important because I work with so many people. Pornography addiction is defined as anything from I had a lustful thought a year ago, I saw an Instagram model three months ago, so I'm looking at hardcore porn five hours a day and masturbating multiple times to it. What was it about the behavior that gave you the impression you were addicted to porn or you had a porn problem?

0:15:39.7 HO: Yeah. So part of it was I masturbated all growing up, and I thought that that was really bad. And then, as far as the pornography part, a big thing was feeling aroused. I just translated, "Oh my gosh, I see... " Whatever. So the way I found out that I didn't have a pornography issue was actually sitting in a session with an LDS therapist, and she had made a comment of, "You've probably seen more than girls your age, than the typical girl your age, as far as inappropriate images," or whatever. And I sat there and I was like...

0:16:21.8 DB: So I'm gonna... 'Cause we like specificity...

0:16:23.8 HO: I know I'm jumping all around. [chuckle]

0:16:25.1 DB: No, no, no, jumping around is beautiful. I love it. What I like to do is specificity. Did I say the word right? [chuckle] We're talking about these things, 'cause again, as you get more familiar with this group, you're gonna see... And the problem around sexual health is we all have our own definitions, so when you say inappropriate, what I think I'm hearing is saying you've probably seen more women naked or... What do you mean when you say inappropriate?

0:16:53.8 HO: Yeah. Great. Good question. So, like a PG-13 movie, if a couple starts making out, or whatever... Like not even... Not even like sex, but stuff that would turn me on...

0:17:06.7 DB: Visually-stimulating...

0:17:07.8 HO: Yes. I...

0:17:09.1 DB: For you.

0:17:09.8 HO: Yeah. Yeah. And so the therapist had... 'Cause I had told her, "I think I have a pornography addiction," and she, one day, said, "You've probably seen more than maybe the typical girl your age," and I was like, "No, actually, I don't think I have. I've only seen things in like PG-13 movies, but I hadn't ever seen someone having sex or... I don't know, not even naked genitals."

0:17:39.7 DB: It was just the fact that you were getting aroused from what you were seeing.

0:17:43.6 HO: Yeah. Yeah, and because I had that desire to see or to keep watching, or whatever, and... But...

0:17:52.1 DB: So that was going against the For Strength of Youth, by...

0:17:54.8 HO: Yes. Yeah. Yes.

0:17:55.7 DB: And so that's... I think that's where we're getting at here.

0:17:57.3 HO: Yes. So, yeah. It's... By definition, I don't know that I would say it was a pornography addiction, if...

0:18:05.1 DB: But if you were to compare it to the For Strength of Youth and you're seeking out these feelings... These...

0:18:07.4 HO: Yes, then it's probably not... Yeah.

0:18:10.5 DB: So the guilt was springing from that, and as you were talking with your various coach or therapist, this was coming to light, that...

0:18:17.7 HO: Yeah.

0:18:18.0 DB: And so your LDS therapist was saying... So continue with that. What was she implying by, "You've seen more... "

0:18:26.2 HO: You know, I don't even remember what the conversation was, but that was a moment in time where I realized like, "Oh, I actually don't think I have seen more than the typical girl my age, but I have placed so much shame on feeling desires, on feeling turned on, you know, aroused."

0:18:47.6 DB: It's bad.

0:18:48.3 HO: Yeah. I remember, when I was a little girl, praying that God would take those arousal feelings away. I hated them. And I remember saying, "Heavenly Mother, why? Why do you give those to me?" And so... Yeah. So this journey that I started going on after my mission was really amazing in being able to release so much shame around my body and my sexuality, and then also really just stepping more fully into being a whole, confident, beautiful woman.

[chuckle]

0:19:23.2 DB: I can't emphasize how much and how important that message is. We hear this... I hear this a lot from young men. They get an erection and it's one thing, and some people feel like, "Yeah, I'm making excuses for young men." Well, usually, it's coming from females, saying it doesn't have to happen, but young men will experience an erection for not just a few seconds, 30 minutes, an hour, as a teenager. And what do you do with that? I'm hearing clearly not the same biological response, but as a female, I think this happens a whole lot more than women are either comfortable in sharing or... Rightfully so. So, in a long way, I'm saying thank you. Thank you for that vulnerability, 'cause I think there's a lot of women out there who need to hear that, the fact that they struggle with these urges, the sensations, the desires, and you're praying for it to go away, that occurs too in women. We don't talk about that a lot, 'cause it's visually noticeable in men. It's like, "It's there, what do you do?" And it doesn't just go away. So you're having these discoveries, and I appreciate you sharing that 'cause that is something I think is important for both men and women to hear.

0:20:41.8 DB: It happens there, and it needs to be talked about, so what do you do? I, jokingly, but I'm being serious when I say a young man can go into a donut shop and an erection comes. Are they breaking the principles in the For Strength of Youth manual by wanting to go get a... Not trying to be silly, but if you were raised as a young man who got erections out of the... The joke's there, if the wind blows, you're horny, and there's truth to that because your body is developing and you're discovering that. You're discovering now, in your resources, in your therapy, that that's normal. There's nothing wrong with that.

0:21:23.7 HO: Well, and I think so many women when... Like growing up, when you do feel those feelings of arousal, will try and shut it off, will try and numb it a little, try to ignore it, and then that is such a disservice to ourselves when people are ready to get married and to be sexually active and realizing... Not even realizing, but having a hard time being able to feel those feelings again. Or when they do feel those feelings, and it's in a place where they're allowed to, they feel so dirty and unworthy of being able to feel those feelings.

0:21:57.2 DB: Right there, that's the concept I think is so hard for a lot of potentially married and even married couples to understand. It's 'cause we convey this idea that it will work out. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that, but you're well aware that's not the case. And it goes against every spiritual, doctrinal, and psychological principle out there, is, we train ourselves to do one thing and we expect one day, just because of one event, we will do the opposite. You spend a good decade of your life before you get married, resisting, rejecting, suppressing these feelings. It doesn't just come back beautifully.

0:22:37.9 HO: Yeah.

0:22:38.2 DB: So now we're at this phase, you're discovering, you're exploring, you get the right help. Where does it go from there? What do you wanna tell us?

0:22:46.5 HO: Yeah. So after I worked through a lot of the heavy stuff, releasing a lot of shame around my sexuality, being a photographer, I decided that I wanted to do a boudoir session for myself as a young, single adult. And so I remember setting up for my camera, putting the timer on, and running over to the bed.

0:23:14.4 DB: You're literally taking your own shots.

0:23:17.7 HO: Yeah, and I was doing it for myself too... We don't often give ourselves the opportunity, as men or women, to really see our body fully and appreciate it and love it for where it's at. And so, my first experience doing my own little boudoir session was in a hotel room, I was on a work trip, and that changed the way that I saw my body. And of course, I had been doing my work in other areas to more fully love and accept my body, but that was something that I was finally in a place to see myself and to own my body and see that it's beautiful. And I guess the short version is I, over the years, have been able to see how that has helped other women and myself. And so that is something that I'm so passionate about offering to women as an opportunity to set fully into their body and to really celebrate it and see it for the beautiful body that it is.

0:24:29.1 DB: Now, I wanna jump into that, but before we do, I'm gonna bring up... 'Cause I know there's a lot of people out here asking, "Have you gotten criticism for this being just a version of porn? And how have you addressed that?" I'm just gonna leave it open like that. What are the obstacles you faced as you've... So what we're hearing is this has been life-changing for you. There's clearly a blessing that's come along with this. Now, I don't wanna make an assumption, have you gotten pushback?

0:25:01.2 HO: Yeah.

0:25:02.3 DB: And do you wanna tell us a little bit about that?

0:25:03.8 HO: Yeah. So, for a long time, I wasn't really sharing with the public or my circle that I was doing these or offering these...

0:25:14.3 DB: It's more word of mouth, or whatever?

0:25:16.1 HO: Yeah, word of mouth, and I was doing portrait photography for...

0:25:19.7 DB: And why was that? Because of the shame around it?

0:25:22.6 HO: Yeah, because I was afraid that... Something that I was afraid about when I started my sexual health journey, was that people would think I was promiscuous because, "Oh, this is a single girl, she's not getting married in the near future, she shouldn't be looking into this stuff right now," and so that was... The same with the boudoir stuff, is, "Oh, you're not married. Why would you want to do this unless you're being promiscuous?" And maybe that's just a story in my head.

0:25:56.5 DB: Oh, it's not just a story in your head. It's alive and real, as I think you already know.

0:26:00.6 HO: Yeah. Yeah. And so it wasn't until this last year that I decided this has been so meaningful and fulfilling, I'm going to do this, pursue it more full-time. And so I realized or I decided that if I wanted to help other women be brave enough to do this, I needed to be brave enough to share, and so I shared a photo and I was in a robe, I was very covered up, but I shared on my Facebook page and Instagram, and just shared my story of how I became a boudoir photographer and why it's so important to me. And I did get some messages and some people in my circle reaching out to different people around me, saying, "Help a pornography photographer," and people telling me they were concerned about me.

0:26:52.9 DB: Of course, and... Well, I say that kind of sarcastically, right? So, how did you respond to them? Or did you?

0:27:01.0 HO: Yeah. Well, it was an opportunity for me to look inside and get more clear on, "Okay, am I? Maybe I am," just being willing to look at it. But yeah, so a response is, "Hey, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I would love to talk about this more," and some people didn't really want to talk about it, and I understand that they're coming from a place of their own triggers and their own hurt and pain, and their own understanding. And also it's like, "Okay, I'm more than willing to discuss this."

0:27:42.6 DB: Was the reception or criticism better or worse with men or women? Or was it kind of the same?

0:27:49.5 HO: It was mostly from men.

0:27:53.8 DB: Yeah, I'm smiling over here. Isn't that the truth? You can't even own your own sexuality, your own pursuits without somebody coming in.

0:28:04.6 HO: Yeah, and that was something that was really frustrating, is, "Okay... "

0:28:08.3 DB: So you were defending yourself mostly against what men were thinking? I mean, I'm sure there was women there too, but...

0:28:15.7 HO: There were women too. And I do have to say I don't get a ton of kickback, but I did in the beginning, and I've kind of decided, "Okay, I'm gonna keep pursuing this and keep just doing my thing because I'm seeing how it's changing lives."

0:28:31.8 DB: And forgive me. I don't wanna focus just on that, breaking through that barrier, but I do like to emphasize it at least briefly here because I think that's what holds so many of us back, is how do we get through that. I know, when I first published my article on masturbation and how it's a healthy part of development, we were teaching this, as a church, actually, as early as 1927, I think. And then things kind of... The way we approached it was different, but here I had a science-based article that was in line with my professional teachings. And I remember the day I was clicking the publish button, I was shaking because of the concern. I knew my relationship with my Heavenly Father, my family, the work I've done with clients, the beautiful progress I've seen, but there was this fear, this shame of how I would be perceived, and having a breakthrough, and we don't talk about that a lot, and I think it's important. Would it be fair to say it was scary or...

0:29:40.0 HO: Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

0:29:42.3 DB: How did you deal with that? I mean, there was a day that you made a decision to go live with your website and say, "This is who I am." Again, I don't wanna make the focus all about that, but I think it's important for at least others to see what it was like for you to go through. Do you mind sharing the emotions or feelings you went through?

0:30:01.4 HO: Yeah, with this and with my faith, I've had a lot of experiences and opportunities where I have had to show up and say, "This is me, and this is what I'm choosing to do with my life." And it's painful to see people I love and what they respond with. And so part of me, some of it was, "Okay, I'm just gonna do it," and I have to pretend that all those people that I see in my mind that are watching me aren't actually watching me, and then processing through the shame later, the feelings that are triggered once I'm like, "Oh yeah, yep, they're watching, and they're now responding." So...

0:30:47.7 DB: You come across as a very insightful person, I know I've already pointed out.

0:30:52.0 HO: Thank you.

0:30:52.1 DB: I think there's a lesson there, is you're internalizing it. You're not just saying, "Screw you." You're not... You're saying, "Okay, alright, I see what you're saying here," but then you go off and you do your internal work later. Is that a fair summary?

0:31:06.6 HO: Yeah, absolutely. And I would say for people who may have to do similar things in their lives, if I could go back to my younger self who felt scared about showing up more fully because of how people would treat me or think, I would invite myself to have more compassion for where I was at, and realize, "You actually don't... You don't need to show up, you don't need to explain yourself if you don't want to, and it will come." And that's something that I have seen, with my life. I've been doing boudoir photography for a number of years now, and maybe for someone, it's a shorter amount of time, but for me, it took a little bit for me to get into a place where I was really, I guess you could say, embodying where I stood and felt confident enough to make the step and to let myself be seen. So...

0:32:03.9 DB: That is beautiful. That's a lesson I hope people take away from this message here. That's beautiful. So what are you doing? What's been your experience working with clients? So tell us both... I'll let you choose, but both the successes and maybe the struggles of doing this work.

0:32:26.5 HO: Yeah.

0:32:28.3 DB: And oh, by the way, are you exclusively women, or do you work with men also?

0:32:33.3 HO: Yeah. So, right now, I work with women and couples. And so I know I've had a number of men reach out to me, which I think is amazing. I think that's so awesome that men have this desire because I know that it's not... Our body image and insecurities and things, that's not just a female problem. And so if men want to be photographed, what I will do is I'll do a couple of sessions, and then I'll take some photos of the wife... Or of woman and then of the man. I don't, at the moment, photograph men on their own. Yeah.

0:33:07.0 DB: So tell us some of your success stories and also struggles.

0:33:12.2 HO: Yeah. So, one of the most... My favorite things about working with women is being able to have them come in one-on-one, and being able to give them this experience. My boudoir sessions are a luxury experience. They get to come and they get their hair and make-up done. They get just well taken care of...

0:33:37.5 DB: Pampered?

0:33:38.4 HO: Yes. Pampered. Thank you. They come, they get pampered, and this is all about them and getting to celebrate their body and own their body, and that... Being able to see that with each individual woman is just so fun. And then bringing them into the studio after they get their hair and make-up done, and it's just... It's like this girl's party. I have my hair and make-up artist and me and our client, and we're pulling out outfits from the client's wardrobe, and just seeing how they're nervous, obviously, a little bit, but also just excited for something that's a new experience, and a fun experience. And so that is something that's very exciting and fun for me, that I love. And then I guess... Let's see, I also... With my clients, I've worked with a number of women in different phases of their life. I've worked with women who are pregnant, with women who just had a baby and want to embrace their body where it's at.

0:34:40.2 HO: I had one client... This is one of my favorite experiences. I photographed a client, and six months later, she was diagnosed with cancer. And so she had those photos. We don't always know what's gonna happen in the future, but being able to photograph right now, the phase we're in. And she was diagnosed with cancer, spent around nine months in bed getting treatments, and things, and she's now cancer-free. And about a month ago, I was able to photograph her again, and that was just such a special experience for both of us to have done it before, and then after everything, she's gone through and showing up and just hearing her story and her experience with... Like, "Oh, my body isn't perfect, it's not where I want it to be," but showing up anyways and allowing herself to be photographed. And she loves those pictures. And I guess both the pictures before she had cancer and the pictures afterward, that was just a really... I was honored to be able to be part of that.

0:35:52.0 DB: That is beautiful. Have you had clients where they struggled with self-image and were... In a more severe way and use this as an opportunity to help that, and did you see... Did you have an experience where doing this helped them overcome some of their negative self-images?

0:36:17.4 HO: Yeah, absolutely. I would say almost everyone I've worked with has had body image issues, and they'll often share with me beforehand like, "I'm a little insecure about this part of my body or... " But I had one client... And, oh, I will say I have permission to share these experiences, I made sure, I did that before I came. I had one client who you would never expect that she didn't like her body because, according to cultural expectations about how your body should be, she checks off that list. And I photographed her, and I remember in this session, I hadn't... The photos weren't edited or anything, but I turned the camera around to show her the photo, and she had tears in her eyes, and she said, "I've never liked photos of myself until this... Until today." And yeah, it was just amazing. And then I sent her the gallery and she reiterated that again. And then I got a text from her later, that she said I could share, and she said that she had struggled with eating disorders for 13 years of her life, and how this experience, being able to see her body and how beautiful and amazing it was, was just completely life-changing for her.

0:37:40.0 DB: That is... I can't imagine what that would be like for somebody. I think we do men a disservice, thinking, you brought it up a little earlier, we have image issues, but we're not expected to. We struggle with this thing. I think men would benefit from maybe something similar. Maybe not the exact same thing but... But to hear that, 'cause I work with quite a few clients, so I'm gonna kind of blend a topic here because I think you're probably one of the best people to inform me on this since you're working on the side of helping women to embrace their beauty, their naturalness, their authenticity. As a male therapist, it's interesting 'cause I'll get both... I'll get women who want to work with me to improve that aspect of their life, primarily because it's been men in their lives who've defined that for them, and so, in a therapeutic way, they use me as a confrontation to... Not in a negative sense, but you know what? You're a man, I don't wanna be afraid of this anymore, which is interesting because I value that, that's actually an appropriate role of therapy. We do have a lot of exposure in getting used to "I wanna be confident with this." While at the same time, I may get women who want to work on this, but because I am a male therapist, it's scary, it's hard to break through for that, and I always respect that, of course.

0:39:16.7 DB: What are your thoughts? Do you feel... I realize there's no absolute answer here, but if you were to coach a therapist, a coach who is a male, what would you say? I realize, this is the big question, how would you say is a good way to help women feel safe?

0:39:39.5 HO: In therapy, or in general, in life?

0:39:40.7 DB: In exploring their... If they're coming to therapy and wanting to improve their sexual health, their negative self-image, I guess maybe have you worked with a man, or is that why you haven't worked with men in the past? Are you wanting to find that as a safe space with other women? What are your thoughts? It's a really broad question.

0:40:05.1 HO: Yeah. No, that's a good question.

0:40:07.1 DB: In other words, how can we men support and help and be better?

0:40:09.4 HO: Yeah. My first thought is every woman... You already know this, but every woman is different in their need for how to heal that. And so some women, for them, they're in a space where they're ready to have a man who is a safe place to listen and to talk about it. And then, for other women... I probably wasn't one of those women, I needed to talk to another woman because that was safe for me.

0:40:39.6 DB: So let me give you a little bit more context. I have a lot of men reaching out to me who would crave for their wives or girlfriends, fiances to do this. And I sincerely... So there's a dynamic here. I think a lot of men are afraid to even suggest it because of the perception around sexual health and sexualizing everything. It's a fascinating place we're at because I think we're breaking through a lot of barriers, but I think men have this stigma already. If we talk about seeing a woman who is in lingerie as beautiful, we're automatically sexualizing her. So we'll get a husband who's saying, "Gosh, I know my wife, in all her pregnancies, in her middle age, is sexy. She is beautiful. She doesn't see it." I think a boudoir session would be helpful for her. But even suggesting that can come across as invasive or not appropriate. Is there... It seems like... What do men do? What do you suggest? I'm sure you've seen this dynamic play out. Is there... And again, I know everybody's different, but what would be your general suggestion in husbands or...

0:42:06.7 HO: I love this question. So, if my friend... If I had a friend who came to me to ask me that, I would say, "Start out by telling your wife, 'I'm afraid that you're going to think... Or I'm afraid... The story is in my head that I'm going to come across as this way, and this is not what my intention is, but I've found this amazing boudoir photographer, Hope, who helps women and focuses on helping them feel better and more confident in their body, and I really love you, and I would love for you to see how I see you.'"

0:42:46.3 DB: I like that. So, in other words, put it in terms that are value-centered to her. Not, "I want this... "

0:42:53.9 HO: Yeah.

0:42:53.9 DB: Or, "I think you should do this so you can see what I see." That's all 'me' centered. That's... As opposed to, "You are beautiful and I would love to see... I would love to show you what I see." It's still kind of 'me', but it's focusing on her. I really like that approach.

0:43:11.4 HO: And I think a huge thing, even take boudoir photography out of it, just having that communication, like creating that safe space between one another, where you can communicate, "Hey, I want to share this thing and I'm a little afraid of how it's gonna come across, so let me explain my fears a little bit, and then let me explain what I'm wanting to say." And of course, you're the therapist, I'm not the therapist, I don't know everybody's relationship or how to navigate those things completely, but that's something that's been really helpful in my life. So...

0:43:45.9 DB: Well, no, it's interesting, I talk with hairstylists or photographers, and they are pretty much... My wife's a vocal coach, and she says a lot of her sessions are pretty much therapy. You go to a very sensitive place, and I think it is valuable, and so you're in a position to do something very, very vulnerable. In some ways, it's... I don't know if you compare it to more vulnerable now, but it's definitely just as vulnerable as therapy. You're going in, you're sharing an intimate side, your insecurities, you're showing up to this stranger, most likely, and I'm bearing pretty much all. And so, no, I think your insights are very valuable. You're having to navigate these very sensitive, fragile topics that are triggering for a large number of people. This is excellent. So, in general, what do you recommend? When do you feel it's time for... Should all women do this?

0:44:46.1 HO: That's a good question. You have all the best questions, apparently, today. Every time you ask a good question, I'm like, "That's the best question." So one thing I strongly suggest, this is also kind of linked to your last question about what can men or husbands do, is I... So I have a private Facebook group for women, and that's a space that's... It's a support group, it's a safe space, and it's a fun group. We have fun things that we post and women can go and ask questions, and so a lot of times I will encourage women who aren't sure if they're in a space to get a boudoir session to go and join that group because it allows them to get a feel forme'. And that is incredibly important. Like you said, this is a very vulnerable experience that they're signing up for. And so that's one thing, is allowing them to get to know their photographer, to decide if this is a safe place, and also to help them, I guess, develop that trust. And then I think every woman's journey is her own. And so, for some women... I guess, to answer your question, the short version is do I think that the only way to feel confident and amazing in your body is to go get naked and take photos? No.

0:46:09.7 HO: Do I think that it's an amazing, incredible opportunity for women to be able to love and embrace their full-body? Yes. And so, for some women, they may decide that it's not for them, and that's totally okay. And then also I'll have clients who, for some of them, they wanna come in and just show a shoulder and that's okay, and for others, they wanna do completely nude. And so I think it's important for me, as a photographer, to meet my clients where they're at, and it's also important for individuals to meet themselves where they're at.

0:46:45.2 DB: Excellent. I love that response. So what are your aspirations? We've heard the struggles, the journey you went through to get here. Who are you now? If you were to describe yourself, what has this success made you? How would you describe yourself as... So let's talk about everything, as a person, your sexual health, what are your views on sexual development? Let's go anywhere you're willing to go. Who are you now?

0:47:19.0 HO: Cool. Cool. Yeah, that's good... Sorry, I don't know why I keep saying that's a good question.

0:47:23.6 DB: I warned you we were gonna go everywhere here.

0:47:27.9 HO: Yeah, I think the biggest thing that has come from my life experiences and, of course, my career choice is that I've become my own person, and I have come to realize that I get to be in charge of filling my own needs, and I get to give myself permission to show up as a whole person, as someone who can create a life that I love. And a wonderful thing that I think has come from that, and I realized that that... This isn't always what happens for everyone, but I have been able to find myself in a relationship that is incredibly wonderful and fulfilling, and there is just so much trust and communication. And that is, a big part, because I did the work for myself, and I believe, whether people are in a relationship or not, they can do that for themselves, they can come to discover themselves. And so sometimes people are like, "Oh, you know, I'm in a relationship now. I wish I had gotten a boudoir shoot when I was single." And I'm like, "You can do this for yourself, whether you're single or not, it gets to be for you." And so I would say as I have embraced my sexuality, as I have done what I call my inner work around loving and accepting my body and myself, it has transformed the way that I show up in life.

0:49:12.0 HO: I feel more confident, and I feel like I'm able to own myself and my choices far more than I ever used to. I used to be a huge people-pleaser. I used to care so much about what people think, and I still find myself in those moments, 'cause we're all human, but I would say, as I have done the work to have a healthy relationship with myself and my body, it has completely transformed, I would say, every aspect of my life.

0:49:45.9 DB: I realize it's a journey. There isn't one point where you say, "Yeah, I'm done. I'm... This is great," but do you feel like you can now experience desire or orgasm or masturbate and feel like there's no guilt here. What's that level?

0:50:02.0 HO: Yeah. Yeah.

0:50:04.0 DB: I wish you guys can see because she's glowing again. It's like, "I own this. There is no shame." Is that what I'm seeing?

0:50:10.6 HO: Yes, yeah, and realizing that God didn't just make these things for me, so for only the use of when I'm gonna create a baby or only the use for a man, or anything like that, but...

0:50:25.5 DB: Have you ever talked about masturbation this openly?

0:50:27.7 HO: No.

0:50:28.9 DB: How are you doing it?

0:50:31.6 HO: I have with my circle, with friends, we talk about masturbation, and all the things, sex, and stuff. I've never really done this with a man that I... You and I just met today in person.

0:50:45.6 DB: And you appear very comfortable. Is that what you're experiencing?

0:50:49.5 HO: Oh yeah.

0:50:49.5 DB: Okay, good.

0:50:50.0 HO: This is great. I love it. And I forgot what your question was.

0:50:55.0 DB: Sorry, this is what we do. We get really organic here. The question was, originally, do you experience guilt around that at all, or are you able to truly bask in it? Like it's joyful... From your facial expression, yeah, it seems like that's the case now, is you own it, and you get to thoroughly use it as a part of happy living. Would that be a fair description?

0:51:20.6 HO: Yeah, and just like you said, it's still a journey, right? And so I am still discovering things about myself and my body, and I very strongly believe that we talk about our sexual ability or powers, or whatever you wanna call that, as, obviously, a way to create human life, and I also see it as a way to create, spiritually or energetically, my whole life. And so, yeah, I don't feel shame around that anymore, and there are still things to learn but it's... I don't know, it's amazing.

0:52:10.3 DB: Still things to learn, you kinda looked off in the distance. Were you thinking of something specific or... What do you mean by that? I agree with the general principle that we're always learning, but was there something specific that you're thinking of?

0:52:26.5 HO: Yeah, let's see. Still things to learn, meaning like, "Okay, I know how to orgasm but that doesn't necessarily mean I know all the different ways to experience pleasure in my life, and how can I continue?" And not even experiencing pleasure, sexually, but...

0:52:46.2 DB: It's not just about the orgasm, you're saying, it's like, "What is my body experiencing?" Is that what you mean?

0:52:52.2 HO: Yeah, and slowing down with my body and being present, and giving my body my attention and loving it.

0:53:02.5 DB: A lot of people refer to, for women, OMGYes. Was that a resource you used? Or what do you do? Or how do you go about experiencing or learning, for you? Is it just a natural thing for you? Or are you using...

0:53:19.6 HO: Yeah, this is interesting, getting very specific. I've used OMGYes, and I haven't used it in a while because it wasn't super-working for me. It wasn't my flavor, but it is something I'd like to revisit, I guess. Yeah, I don't know. I think just trying different...

0:53:42.8 DB: Mindfulness?

0:53:45.8 HO: Oh, yes, yes. Yeah. Well, and that's... I refer to masturbation as self-pleasure and I think that mindfulness and self-pleasure are... They get to be something that's hand-in-hand. That's very... Yeah, it's very fun.

0:54:01.9 DB: It's not surprising because you started your journey off with mindfulness and I think that it's interesting 'cause I think, as a faith culture, we really do try to teach what mindful as think about what other people are feeling, try to teach empathy, but there's this very judgmental side that shuts that down. But you came in with mindfulness, being aware of, you learned early on, "What is your body experiencing?" And so resources like OMGYes maybe weren't the best for you because you're more of an... Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just interpreting what you're saying here. It appears like you're more of an introverted person. You're insightful about what's going on. You know something's wrong and so you explore that. Is that kind of what I'm hearing?

0:54:49.4 HO: Well, no... So, as far as OMGYes, it was like the techniques just weren't working for me.

0:54:56.5 DB: It wasn't working for you?

0:54:56.6 HO: Yeah.

0:54:56.7 DB: Okay. It just wasn't right for you?

0:54:58.6 HO: Yeah, if we're talking on a physical level, so many things, in the beginning, I had so much pain down in my sexual organs.

0:55:10.4 DB: So you had to address that.

0:55:11.7 HO: Yeah, yeah, and that was... We are getting very specific here, but that was a big thing that also was... I wasn't ready. I'm like, "I can't have sex 'cause I can't even... Everything hurts down there, so... "

0:55:33.0 DB: Yup, so you had to address that, you recognized.

0:55:34.9 HO: Yeah.

0:55:35.1 DB: Yeah. No, that's... Again, this is something we don't talk about, and it is common, whether it's because it's biology, we also see vague... Oh man, I always butcher the word... Vagueness... Which is the painful intercourse, probably butchering that. My dyslexia always kicks in when I go live or try to teach something on board. Somebody's gonna call me out and say, "You said it wrong. You're a therapist, you should know." I know. I know. So, sometimes it's caused by physical development and/or by our perceptions of our sexual health, and so that's an important topic. And I know a lot of people don't realize it, they have painful sex, and it could be because of the good girl syndrome, or whatever. And so you discovered that and you're able to address it, so you're having to handle those issues.

0:56:25.0 HO: Yup.

0:56:26.0 DB: So, back to photography, thank you for going there... So I'm curious, you've gone through this journey of improving your own self-image, of improving your sexual health, and thank you for being so vulnerable with that. I personally... That's my goal, my aspiration in life is when we can treat... I really, truly believe whatever people's definition of sacred is, I really believe we could talk about masturbation, we could talk about intimacy, we could talk about how we overcome these things without it being weird, without it being creepy, and it's about really creating a culture of, "How do you masturbate? What does that look like?" Removing the sexuality, sexual stigma, or whatever you wanna call it, around it, what is your aspiration as you engage in this work? Do you have a hope or a goal of... What do you see the outcome here? If you had your wish, what would it look like?

0:57:35.6 HO: My wish is to help as many women as I possibly can to own who they are, to own their desires, to own what they want in life and to not feel shame for it, to be unapologetic about showing up and speaking out and being heard and being seen, and being totally alright, and... What's the word? Unapologetic is the word I keep thinking about...

0:58:07.7 DB: I think that's a great word.

0:58:08.7 HO: Being unapologetic about being themselves.

0:58:12.5 DB: And you're talking not just their physical self. You're talking about their whole person.

0:58:17.3 HO: Oh, absolutely, yeah, their whole being, 'cause the physical stuff, the boudoir, it seems like it's just something that's happening on the outside. But with every client I work with, no matter where they're at in their own journey, it is an experience that they have an opportunity that they get to do their inner work, and, yeah, to show up physically, but also emotionally, mentally, all the different ways to show up more fully.

0:58:54.1 DB: I'm gonna circle back around because I love your message there, I love the aspiration. It's not just about looking good in your skin. The work you're doing is intrinsic. It's how to be you. In our previous communication setting this up, the word authentic comes up. And I've said this before. I think pop psychology has really watered that down in that meaning, but there's a power behind that, to be able to show up without judgment as much as possible and not fear the impressions and perceptions of what other people... I have had to force myself into that place 'cause I'm actually a very private person. People don't think that because of my public presence, but I do value what people think, but being able to show up authentically. So I wanna wrap around using that thought. I work occasionally... More than occasionally, unfortunately, with women who have been emotionally mistreated in their relationship to... On a big spectrum. I'm thinking, one, I'm trying to keep it as vague as possible here, I think this is relatable to a lot of people who'd been in a relationship for years, and the spouse had particular views of what she should look like, I'll put it that way.

1:00:22.2 DB: And so now that she's coming to herself, she's trying to find a way to... Sometimes I say reclaim, but I don't... She acknowledges she's never had a claim on her body, her identity. And one of the exercises we do, I do, I offer... There are variations of this. I call it the naked assessment. You stand in front of the mirror... You're saying, "Yes." Good.

1:00:49.8 HO: Yes. Yes.

1:00:52.3 DB: And I'll be honest with you, as a male therapist, I knew this was an effective tool because I learned it from my female sex educators, but implementing it was always, always interesting because I'm totally comfortable with offering this, but recognizing some women struggle with it. But what... The way I approach this is, I want you to stand in front of a mirror in all your glory, you're getting out of the shower, you're looking at yourself, and you have a sheet of paper, your phone, whatever is safe for you. Put three columns on it, likes, dislikes, indifferent. And what I say is, "I want you to go through." Not like, "Oh, my legs, I like them." I want you to look at your toes. I want you to see yourself. You've been taught to not see yourself. I want you to first start to learn to see yourself, and then, as you go through, I want you to write down, I like my toes, I like my toenails, I like my ankles, all the way up or down, or however you wanna approach it." If you're done in five minutes, you're doing it wrong. It should be maybe 15 minutes a day, for a week, and you write down the likes, dislikes, and indifference.

1:02:03.2 DB: And a lot of people will go into that, saying, "Oh, the likes. Yeah, I own that." I actually challenge them with this question. I'll say, "Why do you like it? Where did that perception come from? Is it because you have that perfect nose that is on social media and you like it because it conforms?" to start reclaiming or to defining what do I actually like? That's a very difficult thing, as you can imagine. Where I'm going with this is sometimes I've worked with those who have been abused around their self-image, and they've done that, but there's still this very burden, heavy... You're shaking your head. Yes, I think you know where I'm going with this. I'm curious, I guess, maybe from your expression, you're saying yes, have you had to address this in your work? And have you found this type of work to help those individuals to see themselves in a new light? I think we've kind of answered this, but I wanna ask that very specifically, 'cause I know there are women out there who've done everything to reclaim their identity. What are your thoughts?

1:03:17.2 HO: Yeah, first, my thought is... So, I've done the mirror experience a little bit differently. I stand in front of the mirror and I just take myself in. And I've had times where I sit there and I feel so much shame about... You know, like with COVID, I had... I lost weight and then I gained weight, and I had so much shame about how I gained weight. And I knew, in my head, like, "Oh, I shouldn't feel this ." We know with our head, but then we're feeling something different in our body. And so sitting in front of the mirror and allowing myself to cry, and to say like, "Wow, yeah. I feel this way. I feel this way." And really fully holding space for our heart and ourselves to feel those feelings, that's one way.

1:04:13.6 HO: One practice that I use and encourage a lot of people to do, because when we finally give ourselves permission to feel those feelings, that's when we allow them to move to our body, so we don't have to carry them. So that's one thing. And then, as far as with boudoir photography, I will say boudoir photography will not save you, and I don't ever claim that or tell people that. It's amazing. It does change the way that people see themselves. It helps them see themselves in a new light. And at the same time, if there are people who really just absolutely loathe and hate their body, I would suggest that they get help from therapists, from professionals, because I'm not a therapist. I'm not professionally trained to help those in circumstances. And so, yes, boudoir photography is an amazing opportunity to be able to see yourself differently, and also, I would suggest people getting some extra help if they feel like that's what they need.

1:05:28.1 DB: Of course. I'm gonna ask a difficult question now. In your experience, are there particular clients that aren't ready for this? And what does that look like? So that somebody knows whether or not they're ready to take that step. Is there a particular concern that you've seen, that you would caution? Or... I'm kind of going out of thin air here. I just thought it would be a question to ask.

1:05:57.1 HO: Yeah. So I would suggest, you know, invite individuals to look at their reason for doing it. If they are hoping that it will completely save and fix their problems, then they might need to look at that and look at what they're hoping to experience, and how they can find that in whatever ways they need to.

1:06:22.9 DB: Okay. So I wanna clarify 'cause I think that's a great, great point, kinda going along with what you just said a minute or so ago, is if you're coming into this thinking it's going to radically change you without any other work, don't be mistaken.

1:06:38.7 HO: No, yeah. Yup.

1:06:42.0 DB: It can help. It's a part of the process, but if you're coming in with this hopes that it's gonna change, radically, everything you think and see of yourself without doing the work, the work being maybe more introspective, mindfulness therapy, whatever it is, this is just another step in that healthy development. Am I hearing you correctly?

1:07:01.0 HO: Yes, yup, yeah, and so I think...

1:07:05.9 DB: You're not saying, "No, don't do it," but don't assume it's gonna be...

1:07:09.0 HO: Yeah, take a look at your intention and your expectation, because if that's your expectation, then you might be disappointed. However, I would also say if somebody has a desire to do this, I would say that that is an amazing starting point, like, okay, if this is something that you want, then I would say, "Yeah, this is probably something that needs to happen," maybe it's now or maybe it's later. I have some women in my Facebook group who have said, "I'm not in a place... It scares me, but I hope that someday I will be." And that's totally fine, and they follow along.

1:07:48.6 DB: It's authentic. They're being true to themselves. They're not just saying, "Okay, this will solve it," right? And not being honest with themselves. So carrying that authenticity in.

1:08:00.8 HO: Yeah.

1:08:00.9 DB: So if somebody is just doing this without... They're feeling pressured, they're feeling like it's the only way to do it, you're not saying, "Don't do it," but be a little bit more aware of the goal here.

1:08:11.0 HO: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, if you feel like you're having to drag yourself or you need me to drag you into it, then it might be... You might need some more time. But at the same time, it's perfectly normal for my clients to book and then be like, "Oh my gosh, what did I just do?" And so it's normal to feel a little scared or nervous, and that's okay. And they keep moving forward, and I help them, prep them up to their shoot, and then when they come, I'll have clients here, it's like, "I'm nervous, but I'm excited." And once we get into the session, I'm helping them, I show them exactly how to pose...

1:08:52.0 DB: They get lost in it.

1:08:52.1 HO: Yeah, and it's just this fun... Just an amazing experience for all of us. So, if someone is feeling nervous and feeling, "I don't completely love my body," that is completely, totally normal.

1:09:09.1 DB: I have maybe one last question here for you. You brought up earlier how it's improved your relationships. Are you in a relationship right now?

1:09:18.0 HO: Yeah.

1:09:18.6 DB: Okay, tell me a little bit more about that. I think that's important. How has understanding your sexuality, owning your own body helped the relationship? Give me some examples. I realize this is involving somebody else so I wanna be respectful of that.

1:09:39.0 HO: Yeah, that's okay. We're good. He's fine. Yeah. So one thing is, as I learned my desires around my sexuality and released shame around those, that's also connected to the desires we have just in our normal lives. And I think, for a lot of women, we find ourselves needing to clear through the beliefs of, "I'm not allowed to have what I want or I can't ask for what I want unless it's to bless and help others," or so many different things, or, "I should always be serving" or, "I should always be sacrificing." And so a huge thing with coming to embrace my desires and release the shame around those was seeing how that affects my relationship, realizing... Last week, my boyfriend was having just such a busy work week and I was noticing these moments where I was bidding for attention. And that's totally okay. That's fine. And also I'm realizing, okay, I can ask for... I can use my words and ask for what I need, or if he isn't in the space where he is able to fill that, I can fill that myself because I am my own person. And so I have... In my head, I have my list of ways that I fill my needs. And so I'm like, "Okay, he's busy. He's... " Totally understandable, and that's okay. I'm going to go take care of myself, take care of my needs."

1:11:16.9 DB: So I wanna be clear again here, are we talking intellectual, sexual, all of the above?

1:11:23.1 HO: Yeah, all of the above. Emotionally... So, with that experience last week, I was like, "Okay, I am noticing I need connection, so if he isn't able to be in a place right now, that's okay. I can find connection with my friends or my sister or myself." And so some days, I will realize, "Okay, my need for today is to be with myself," and it's like, "Oh, I need attention for myself, actually," so I'm gonna go meditate, I'm gonna go journal, I'll go take a bath, go pick my nails, whatever. And... Or other days, it'll be like, "I can't... I need other people. I need connection with other human beings," and so that's gonna be my boyfriend or that's gonna be my friend or my sisters. And so it has really helped me become aware of what I need and not expect him to fill all of my needs for me, and realize that I get to do that.

1:12:25.8 DB: I'm gonna point out what... I don't see it as a paradox because I understand that we call that self-actualization. You are your own person, even in a relationship. The way you phrase that, though I think some people struggle with that, I could get that connection somewhere else. Isn't that hurting the relationship? What are your thoughts? I don't wanna put words in your mouth. Do you know where I'm going with this? Does that make sense?

1:12:58.1 HO: Yeah. Yeah. No, it doesn't hurt the relationship. This is something that I love about my relationship, is that we both recognize, "Okay, we have needs and the other person... " We're capable of helping each other fill those needs, and also we have created a safe space and trust with each other to be able to communicate, like sometimes if he and I are in an argument, I have an anxious attachment style, and so I'll be like, "I need you to hold my hand, and sometimes...

1:13:34.7 DB: You communicated.

1:13:36.5 HO: Yeah, and sometimes though, he's like, "I can't hold your... I'm not in a place where I can hold your hand right now," and I have to realize that's okay. And so I can hold space for him not being able to hold the space for my needs if that makes sense.

1:13:50.3 DB: Yes.

1:13:54.8 HO: And because we know, we can ask for what we want and we can be okay with not... With the other person not being able to give it to us. So, we have so much trust in our relationship, and it's not draining, or because we know...

1:14:11.4 DB: It's clear.

1:14:12.8 HO: Yeah, it's beautiful. I love it.

1:14:15.8 DB: I'm gonna have to take you and him on a roadshow because this is like... When I talk with couples, it is so far from what they expect. We use this word in a pejorative, and I think we're all... Even your relationship, that's codependent, in the sense of you understand each other. I don't know if codependent itself is a negative thing, but we do live in a way that's so codependent that if you're not experiencing what I'm experiencing when I need you to experience it, you are a manipulator. You are neglectful in our relationship. The way you just described it is... And forgive me, I'm not trying to put you on a pedestal, but the work you've done has clearly shown up in how you function as a relationship. And because of your self-actualization, of your individuality in the relationship, you have an identity. And we talk about... Whether you're married or not, we talk about relationships as being one, and we misconstrue that as we have to be one on everything.

1:15:13.3 DB: No, you fell in love with each other because you're individuals, and you're able to sit there and say, "I need this. You're not ready to give it to me, I respect that, but I was able to share it, and when you're ready, meet me where I'm at." And you are meeting each other at the right... And that's where I think a lot of people, at least in our faith culture, see that as a paradox. It's like, "No, I'm in a relationship with you, and I have to be your priority." I am being your priority by recognizing I can't give this right now, and I wanna be undivided with you, and that is beautiful, so I'm gonna... Maybe I don't intend it... For it be a loaded question, but do you feel like the work you've done around your sexual health and your photography is why you can do that now?

1:16:05.0 HO: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I grew up... I was so codependent growing up, and again, I have an interesting attachment style. Even a few years ago, I was in relationships and dating people, where I was just like this energy vampire. I'm like, "I need you to be this for me, and I need... " And so, yeah, I'm a completely different person and different in how I show up in my relationships.

1:16:33.0 DB: What a wonderful, wonderful discovery, and it's clear, just looking at you, you've done the work, you're authentic, you're real. We've covered a lot of topics here today.

1:16:45.2 HO: Yes, we have.

1:16:46.5 DB: And I'm proud of you.

1:16:47.6 HO: Thank you.

1:16:47.7 DB: And you did it so... It feels like it was you. I hope it was.

1:16:52.2 HO: Oh, yes. Oh, absolutely.

1:16:52.8 DB: And any last thoughts or words that you feel like should be shared, whether it's with your work or your experience, anything? What do you feel like this audience of people struggling to know who they are should know?

1:17:10.1 HO: My hope is that those who are listening will be inspired and realize that... That they have what it takes to create the life that they want, the relationships that they want, whatever it is, career, that they can be their own person. That they get to show up as beautiful, perfect in their growth, whole being.

1:17:37.6 DB: I love it. I love it. Thank you, Hope. I think you have...

1:17:40.3 HO: Thank you.

1:17:41.6 DB: And I'm sure you get this a lot, I think you've provided a lot of hope here. So, thank you.

1:17:45.3 HO: Thank you.

1:17:49.0 DB: And I look forward to hopefully doing a live question and A with you.

1:17:51.0 HO: Yeah, absolutely.

1:17:51.4 DB: I think our group members would really appreciate that. So, until then.

1:17:56.6 HO: Awesome. Great. Thank you.

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